Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@Medea & Duke
The last time I received a letter from the IRS it had “penalty for private use $250” on the outside of the envelope!
Why on earth can’t you reuse their lousy envelope? The bathroom springs to mind.
@ calgary411
LOL re: the italics explanation. I tried explaining how to do blockquotes once and kept html tagging my explanation while trying to explain. I think all I did was befuddle the person who asked.
@ Duke of Devon
I still feel delightfully delinquent when I rip off a mattress or pillow tag. Now if I can develop the same sense of ease with “pain of perjury” …
If you’re a US citizen and your bank asks you to state whether you’re a US person or not, close your account take your money to a friendlier place where they don’t ask that question. Why reward those who wish to make your life miserable with your money? Why would you want to continue a relationship with someone who’s forcing you to lie when you have other options?
MB it’s liberating. As Hitchens said’ one of the beginnings of emancipation is the ability to laugh at authority’
@Bubble
There are no other options in Switzerland.
If the bank asks and you refuse to cooperate and close your account, they are obligated to report your account to the CRA. The same is true even if you close your account _before_ they ask, because eventually they have to catch up with accounts that existed prior to July1, 2014. Hopefully FIs will only ask if there is some US indicia already on record.
Yes, it would seen that much of this will depend on how zealous your bank chooses to be in their hunt for Americans abroad.
Thanks for the info, Pacifica.
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/02/obama-birthright-citizenship-racist-american-samoa-tuaua
Interesting:
“…residents of American Samoa are divided on the question of citizenship. The government of American Samoa has actually sided with the Obama administration in this case, largely out of fear that Samoans’ “way of life and foundational, cultural institutions would be jeopardized if subjected to scrutiny under the Fourteenth Amendment,” a brief from the government of American Samoa says. The plaintiffs contend this is not true, and current and former officials from other territories have filed a friend-of-the-court brief supporting them….”..
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/192120#.VPePvI4YFDS
Interview with Roger Ver, Doug Goldstein on “Goldstein on Gelt”
dwnmedia.israelnn.com//arutz7/shows/gg/gog2mar15.mp3
Roger Ver, one of the founders of Bitcoin, explains why he renounced his U.S. citizenship.
What are the ramifications of giving up your U.S. citizenship, and does it mean that you can no longer visit the United States?
Hello everyone, I would be interested in hearing your thoughts about the following situation.
I was born in the US, naturalized and became a German citizen yesterday, March 5th 2015. Generally, Germany prefers to avoid duals and requires that applicants give up their original citizenship in order to become a German. However, there are some exceptions and I inquired about one of these – the exception basically states, the financial burden to give up ones citizenship may not exceed 1280 € or more than one month’s gross income. Since the fee to renounce is $2350 or about 2080 €, your monthly earnings must be below the fee amount in order to qualify.
I went in to apply for citizenship at the beginning of February. From the original documents I had to bring along regarding monthly income my agent calculated away, asked questions, recalculated several times, and finally said, ”Ok we can do it like this. I’ll write a letter about how I calculated the result and add it to your file. You will hear from us within 8 weeks”. She seemed in a hurry, so I suppressed asking questions. I figured, she did her job and I’ll just wait to see what came out of it.
4 weeks passed and I received notification that I could pick up my naturalization certificate. In the office, my agent began to explain how she had calculated my earnings and that they had been quite close to the maximum. Finding it to have been too borderline a call, she recalculated slightly more in my favor. Mind you, we are talking about a sum of roughly 100€. Nevertheless, she wanted me to understand this and advised me to consider not opting to relinquish. She explained further, more or less, that the DOS could very well say, ”Hey, who are the Germans to decide over OUR authority”. If the DOS is unhappy, they could decide to have my German application file handed out to them. If they then recalculate my case and decide to calculate it differently, there would be no relinquishment. I mentioned that the DOS has been busy and I couldn’t imagine what they follow up on every naturalization that comes in, but she said I shouldn’t count on that. If they don’t like it, they will take their dear old time.
And yet another bit of information was given to me – my German naturalization could be revoked within the first 5 years. Was my agent trying to tell me if the US would prove to Germany that my naturalization was too easily granted, then I would lose the German citizenship as well??
These info’s definitely dampened what should have been a very happy day.
@3Muskateers, the Americans aren’t really going to care about the “hardship” thing. For a relinquishment the main criteria is that you gained German citizenship WITH THE INTENTION of losing the American one. This is what you have done and your financial situation doesn’t come into it. Even if you can easily afford the $2,350 fee and are a multi-millionaire you can relinquish because you gained German citizenship with the intention of losing the American one. You knew that would be the case when you applied for German nationality and went ahead with getting your new citizenship. Your intent is clear and you can relinquish with no worries.
First of all, congratulations on your naturalization! I’ve never heard of anyone getting it that quickly, btw.
Second of all – don’t worry. :-). There is absolutely nothing the USA can do which will have any effect on the status of your German citizenship. Nothing.
Regarding your US citizenship: It’s not clear to me what your intention is. Are you intending to keep it? Most of us here at IBS are very keen to get rid of it (or have already done so), but it sounds like you’re arguing that it would constitute a financial hardship so you qualify for an exception to the dual-citizenship rule in Germany. Whether that is accepted is entirely up to the German officials, but they would have documented their decision before you naturalized, no?
If, on the other hand, you want to relinquish US citizenship, you can most definitely argue (to the US state dept.) that you have committed an expatriating act by applying for and naturalizing in Germany with the intention to relinquish US citizenship.
@3Muscateers
I think you are getting confused. You do not have to prove hardship to relinquish. All you have to do is take up another citizenship with the ‘intention’ of giving up your US one. Renunciation is different and can be done if you already have another nationality but it comes with a cost (2350). You have already relinquished your US citizenship yesterday when you became German (if that is what you intended). So all you have to do now is report that fact to the US consulate. Have a nice day!
PS@3 muskateers
I agree with Medea , the Dos will not concern themselves with German rules and calculations. You have been granted German citizenship, now all you have to do is REPORT your relinquishment if that is what you intended. Germany will not renage and make you stateless.
@ Medea Fleecestealer, notamused, Heidi
Thank you for your answers. After discovering the implementations of Fatca last year I quickly realized for myself that I wanted to give up my US citizenship. I have lived and been married to a national here for over 25 years and the chances of ever moving back are ”0”. It was also important to me to be able to bank freely where I live which is no longer possible.
I normally applied for the German citizenship and merely inquired about whether or not I could qualify for the exception of ”financial burden” since I am a stay at home mom with little earned income. It turned out that I just squeaked by being able to qualify and therefore received the naturalization automatically.
My two dual daughters (20 and 21) decided they want to join me by renouncing, but they haven´t got the funds to each pay the $2350. My husband and I had long discussed what to do, then decided to just get it over with and somehow foot the bill for all three of us girls. My being able to relinquish now reduces this burden somewhat, so I was happy… UNTIL… my immigration agent started telling me to reconsider doing so yesterday… Really ruined my day!
@three muscateers.
trust a bureaucrat to ruin your day!
The dos are dealing with relinquishments about as often as they deal with renunciations but a simple one like yours should be a slam dunk case. The only problem is relinquishments tend to take longer to be approved
I assume your daughters are already German and can only renounce?.
@3Muskateers
Just a reminder not to
use your US passport from now on. IT would be construed as not intending to relinquish.
@3Muskateers, you have no need to reconsider. I’m afraid your immigration agent isn’t up on US relinquishment/renunciation requirements so their advice is pretty useless. Yours is a clear case of relinquishment so go ahead and claim it asap.
Have either of your daughters worked for the German government in any capacity at all? That is another expatriating act and they could claim relinquishment if they’ve done so. Or have they served in the German military as a commissioned or non-commissioned officer? Again, an expatriating act. So long as they have not renewed American passports, filed US taxes, voted in US elections, if they’ve done either of the above relinquishment is a possibility for them.
@ Heidi, Medea Fleecestealer
Unfortunately it´s clear that my girls can only renounce. I sent a mail to the Consulate in Frankfurt today requesting an appointment for us. I believe to be clear on the ”don’t do’s” with regards on how we need to conduct ourselves, especially me, being ”only” German and no longer American since yesterday. I also practiced filling out a DS 4079 form today as if the questions asked on it were made post/after my expatriating act of naturalization yesterday. Ha ha.
I know where to go if anything else freaks me out or I have questions. Thanks all
I don’t know if this question belongs in this forum, but I’ll try. My husband and I are USCs, long-term residents of an Asian country (I really don’t want to identify which) where my husband can claim ancestry, and thus have a relatively easy time to naturalize. It is not a country that would be high on anyone’s list to claim citizenship. Ain’t no Canada or New Zealand. So renouncing in favor of local citizenship is not an easy choice, even though we plan to stay here. For various reasons we are considering the option of him alone renouncing the US and going local, while I retain the yoke of US citizenship. Will this make any difference as far as taxes and FATCA are concerned?
For example, we have our eye on a local investment property. If he were to buy it under his name, set up his own individual bank account where rental income and the eventual capital gains from its sale are paid into, does that place him and the property out of IRS reach? Or does it in fact make matters more complicated for both of us?
I see many references with oblique warnings to non-US spouses of US citizens, but few specifics. Can anyone offer some advice or point me to some case studies or other resources?
@barbara
Phil Hodgen has much to say about tax implications of a US citizen with a non resident alien spouse. There are certainly estate tax considerations when one dies.
Just google Hodgens name and alien spouse to see what applies in your case.
Hello everyone. I would appreciate your thoughts and opinions on my current situation. I have spent considerable time reading a number of articles and comments here recently and would really appreciate your advice.
I was born in the USA came to Canada in 1985 at the age of 25. Married my wife, a Canadian in 1987 and became landed. In 2002 I gained my Canadian citizenship. I have lived in Toronto for the last 30 years. I have not filed a US tax return since 1986 or 87. We have no children We both work, I am self employed. We own a home in Toronto but are not planning on selling within the next 10 years. I have family in the USA including an elderly mother who we visit a few times a year. Not ever returning to the USA I do not see that as an option.
Based on my reading it appears that I may have made big mistake in 2008 when I renewed my US passport for 10 years at the consulate in Toronto. I have also recently (2013) applied and obtained a NEXUS card disclosing my dual citizenship. I suspect these acts would most likely ruin my chances for relinquishment (?).
If I have this correct I can renounce without filing 5 years of tax forms but will be identified as a covered expatiate. This seems exceedingly far from ideal. Or I can spend the vast sums of money to file back returns and then renounce to avoid the “covered expatriate” designation.
Is doing nothing an option as well, thereby taking a wait and see approach?
@Hardtobelieve
Welcome to IBS. Indeed you have found yourself in a situation similar to many of us here. The knowledgable folks at IBS will lay out your options for you, though you seem to have a handle on that already, and then you will have to decide which choice from a menu of bad options you can live with. Your situation, like mine, is complicated by having loved ones stateside.
Having been embroiled in this for quite a few months now myself I STILL have not reached a definitive conclusion…it changes weekly! I just keep hoping, praying, begging that the US will come to their senses, the Senate Finance Committee will actually look at the submissions from ADSC, the US will realize how much this is actually hurting them at the end of the day and this nightmare will just GO AWAY. I donate to ADSC every penny I can scrape up and scream at every legislator, journalist, news anchor, FB site I have an addy for. (This is NOT a plan I recommend, but it is mine for now).
@Hardtobelieve, welcome to Isaac Brock.
Yes, I fear that you have rather ruined the possibility of relinquishing. Renewing your US passport shows that you never intended to lose it when you gained Canadian citizenship. Renunciation is your only option I think.
Yes, you could do nothing, but does your bank know or suspect you’re an American citizen? If so, then they will come calling, asking you to sign a W-9 to allow them to pass your account info on to the Canadian authority responsible for holding the information. Also the question is how long could you wait? The Republicans may have said they’ll get rid of FATCA and change over to residence based taxation if they get elected in 2016, but really once they’re in office this is going to be a long, LONG way down their “to do” list. Are you prepared to wait more years in limbo, not being sure one way or the other that this has been dealt with?
Yes, you can not file any returns or FBARs and become a covered expat, but as you say this is not really something you want to be doing, especially if you travel often to the States. So filing 5 years of back tax returns is probably your best option. Note that you do not have to file the returns before renouncing, it can be done after you renounce.
As well as reading through the links provided under the Important Information at the top right of the page, also have a read here:
http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/U.S.-Citizens-and-Resident-Aliens-Abroad
This will get you started on understanding what you’ll need to do to become tax compliant. Also research the Streamlined program which is probably the most suitable for you if you decide to become compliant.
http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/Streamlined-Filing-Compliance-Procedures
For Streamlined you need to file 3 back years of tax returns and 6 back years of FBARs, but there usually isn’t any problem in adding the 2 additional back years to meet the 8854 form filing requirement of 5 years filed.
Above all, don’t rush any decisions. Do your homework/research thoroughly, go over all the options and then decide what is the best route for you to take.