Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
Thanks, Swanee
This sounds hopeful.
Discussion of issues faced by minors re expatriation:
http://hodgen.com/its-hard-for-minors-to-expatriate/
Victoria explores the issue of citizenship in general – and acknowledges the complexities for the individual trying to foresee their path:
She describes many of the myriad of facets involved, and the interplay when people consider taking a new citizenship, renouncing one, remaining a legal permanent resident, reuniting or maintaining family across borders, etc.
This recently updated (and as always thoughtful) post demonstrates that citizenship and how we think about it is complex, and should not be prescribed or proscribed by anyone but the individual making the decision:
http://thefranco-americanflophouse.blogspot.ca/2015/02/not-everyone-wants-to-be-citizen.html
Very interesting discussion of expatriation and tax issues – also mentions historical changes, speculates on intent of various sections and those who authored them, etc;
See:
http://www.caplindrysdale.com/files/14701_The%20Current%20State%20of%20Expatriation.pdf
‘The Current State of Expatriation’
December 1, 2014, ALI CLE Estate Planning Course Materials Journal
The Current State of Expatriation »
Michael G. Pfeifer authored the article “The Current State of Expatriation” for the December 2014 issue of ALI CLE Estate Planning Course Materials Journal. ‘
Found this related blogpost;
http://theexpatwriter.blogspot.ca/2015/02/im-angry-beyond-description.html
Wednesday, February 04, 2015
The refusal to give Roger Ver a visa to visit the USA has been mentioned on Brock. Some people might be interested in this 15 minute interview he did with James Corbett.
https://www.corbettreport.com/interview-998-roger-ver-on-being-denied-a-us-visa/
I got a problem:
My “Commemoration of Canadian Citizenship” says, “Date N/A” on it. Despite me believing I got it after 18. My citizenship card only says the year photo taken (which doesn’t count as a date).
Anyone seen this before? Am I out of luck or should I try to relinquish anyway?
I’ve joined the ranks of the True North, Strong and (want to be) Free. What they’ve done to us is unfair, unconstitutional and disgusting, all for money.
@CaptainCanuck is that because you were effectively already Canadian through birth or early naturalisation?
That’s the only reasons I can think of for not having a date on the certificate.
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@Medea Fleecestealer
lol nice name.
The Canadian government may have interpreted that as being so. I have heard they passed a law now that will make it so that anyone with Canadian parents born abroad instantly got citizenship?
For me, it was my first time being citizen. But, my parents were Canadian, and just never got around to registering me. They may be mistaken and registered me without me knowing though.
I hope that doesn’t invalidate my relinquishment, as I heard taking an Oath (which I’m pretty sure I did that day) without making a change to your citizenship on the same day is invalid.
Btw, isaacbrock is amazing, I’m learning so much. This is like nuclear physics just to file a damn form 🙂
@CaptainCanuck. If you’re not sure of the details of your citizenship you can request citizenship & immigration file through with an access to information request of CIC. It might help you sort things out.
@CaptainCanuck, I’m a great fan of the Titan Quest video game and a forum for it was the first one I ever joined. I wanted a name to reflect the mythology of the game and I’ve used it ever since.
Yes, the law did change in 2009 and could well be the reason you have no date given on your document.
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/citizenship/rules_2009.asp
Cheryl’s suggestion sounds like a good idea to me. If you can actually get to see your file it will help you to understand your status for relinquishment/renunciation purposes. Certainly, if you can’t provide the US embassy with an actual date I very much doubt that they’ll allow you to relinquish. You would have to go for renunciation and its $2,350 fee. Because, yes, taking an oath on that day would not be seen by the Americans as a change in your citizenship status as you already were a Canadian.
I’m kind of afraid of filing with the CIC. I feel there are a lot of governmental errors in paperwork every day and that I’m one of them. If I get it back conclusive as they don’t have any date on file, I’m kind of out of luck.
Also, because they passed that law that makes insta-Canadians only recently (in 2009, not in the 1990s when I Oath’d), they will just restamp it as “dual on birth” incorrectly.
I wish they understood, that 2009 law just screwed over a whole bunch of Canadians with U.S complications. I don’t consider us U.S citizens.
@CaptainCanadian
I am in the same position as you, naturalized as a Canadian, but am now a Canadian at birth because of the changes to Canada’s citizenship act, but unlike you, I cannot claim a relinquishment since I have voted in a US election since then, and actually waited to become a Canadian until after the law changed allowing me to maintain my US citizenship.
I would think that if you naturalized as a Canadian with the intention of relinquishing your US citizenship you would still have a case regardless of what the Canadian government instituted since then. The Canadian government’s changes in law doesn’t change your intent, does it?
@CaptainCanuck
Cases the same and similar to yours have come up here before, but as far as I recall I don’t think any have been tested all the way to Washington DC.
Looking at two variations: Consider your case of being born in the US to 2 Canadian parents, compared to a case of having only a Canadian mother.
The person with only a Canadian mother was not declared a Canadian since birth until the law change in 2009. I’d guess this case would have the better chance of the relinquishment due to a past naturalization as an adult and the Canadian law at the time (long before 2009).
There are people born in the US in the 50’s to 2 Canadian parents (or Candian father) who didn’t get registered until moving to Canada in the 60’s who were given Registrations of Birth Abroad. It seems that the 2-years-after-birth limit of registering these births wasn’t really enforced, at least at certain times in history. My guess is that the DoS doesn’t care to look at the very fine details of Canadian law. The closest I’ve seen is in the FAM where it says that it is not an expatriating act if a foreign citizenship was obtained by the application of the normal laws of that country. Your case could be judged that registered or not, you were a Canadian since birth. Sheesh, they barely follow their own laws let along ours. Of course, you believed you were not a Canadian and naturalized with the intention of giving up USC. The Canadian government wouldn’t have naturalized you if they thought you were already a Candian citizen. That seems like a strong or at least hopeful case to me. So, which way will the DoS judge?
Documentation…some of the following may be helpful…
A while back my mother needed proof of her Canadian citizenship. A citizenship search would have cost $75 and would take 4 months (as I recall). I knew that a passport application cost about the same and took 2 weeks, and you get a fresh passport out of the deal. Surely, they do the same or better citizenship history search when you apply for a passport, so that’s what she did! This doesn’t apply to you though, since you need the fine details and documentation of exact dates, etc.
I think the suggestions above to “access to information requests” are different from the citizenship search, and involve requesting quite specific docments to be named. I made one of these requests to get my Canadian passport application from the mid-70’s. Look at the instructions carefully. There is a free request and a more formal paid request. The free request is not guaranteed to get a reply. I didn’t notice that and made a free request. They actually phoned me and took me that, but said they happened to not be very busy and were going to push my request through the system even though I hadn’t paid. Only in Canada, eh? Pity. That request was fairly quick. My request for CPP records took 4 months, but it was not made under the Access to Information system.
I have no idea which is better for you, a citizenship search or an Acces to Information request. Another warning is that not all of these government offices have published phone number or email addresses (CPP for example), and you have to mail a letter!
@CaptainCanuck – I assume you naturalized as CDN.
– My CDN citizenship card from 1979 had no date, only the year (at the time I was not a dual citizen).
– My CDN Commemorative Certificate and Letter from 1979 had no date, only a year.
– I applied for a new official (not commemorative) CDN Citizenship certificate. When it arrived it had my birthdate as the day of citizenship (my mother was CDN and I was now part of the 2009 change )…not helpful and I didn’t use it for my relinquishment. I took my original certificate and letter without the date, as well as the contents of my citizenship file. I suggest not wasting your time applying for a new CDN citizenship certificate if all you want is proof of your naturalization date.
– I also applied for the contents of my citizenship file. In it was all the necessary paperwork, dates and signatures required to prove my citizenship. My application in 1979 was part of a family application, and I had extra steps to take to get the information, but in the end it arrived. Be patient: The initial correspondence I got from CIC was they had no file on me. It took some time and back/forthing but eventually they found my file. When I finally received the paperwork, it was mostly redacted due to privacy policy. Another round of back/forth, tracking people down and submitting consent forms, I got the full copy of my file. The copies were extremely poor quality, and CIC was unable to provide me with a clearer copy. I had CIC provide me an official statement about the condition of copies of the documents and I included it with my relinquishment application (should the paperwork be denied based on clarity.) Paperwork was accepted.
Assuming you naturalized as a CDN, there is no harm in you applying for your file contents if you want the exact date. If there is information in your file that does not support your case, simply don’t use it.
cheers. Geri
@Geri
Excellent advice from someone who actually went through the process – successfully.
Now if someone in a similar situation with a more recent relinquishment had asset levels that subjected them to the exit tax, would they choose to relinquish or to renounce claiming they were a dual at birth, which would exempt them from the exit tax?
@Bubblebustin, only if they’re tax compliant to start with. If they can’t file the 8854 form they’re still subject to the exit tax.
@Bubblebustin – To be clear … I was successful in getting the correct paperwork. I did not say I was successful in relinquishing. My case is pending and I will not discuss publicly until it is resolved one way or another 🙂
@CaptainCanuck – Happy to talk with you via email if you require further details, our situations are similar.
kind regards
-Geri
@CaptainCanuck,
Sorry, some bad news…
I see you’ve gotten some great help after my post. I’ve spent the morning digging through my notes, and found a case not posted here at IBS that came back from DC where they denied a relinquishment due to a past naturalization many years ago, ruling that the person with a Canadian mother and US father “acquired Canadian citizenship at birth”. This is even though the Canadian law change to grant this citizenshhip wasn’t until 2009! Since you had a Canadian father, which was “good enough” to give you Canadian citizenship even before 2009, the DoS is perhaps even more likely to deny your relinquishment.
That said, of course every case is based on its own merit and we generally have seen inconsistencies at both the consulate and Washington DC levels.
Yes, of course Medea.
@Geri, good luck. I hope what WhatAmI just wrote doesn’t discourage you.
@WhatAmI
I can’t understand how Canada changing its Citizenship Act would alter anyone’s intent from years before. They’re just being stingy.
This is quite the battle eh. I wish all of you, all of us, could relinquish easily with no tax obligations. That would be the ONLY right way in my view.
@CaptainCanuck, have you served in the Canadian military at all or worked for the Canadian government at any level? These are also expatriating acts and could be used to bolster your case for relinquishment.
@Medea Fleecestealer love it. really enjoyed Titan Quest. If you like that game, you may like Grim Dawn (same developers) or “The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing”.
I wish I did work for the Government or Military, but alas did not.
@Bubblebustin yah, these people are so nitpicky its eventually going to be all setup in such a way that NO ONE qualifies for a relinquishment. the maze seems to get more complex each year and it looks purposeful. no one can openly criticize it for the hogwash it is due to “security by obscurity”, meaning its too hard to verbally attack and explain in the media how wrong it all is.
@WhatAmI
I believe my parents did not inform the U.S that they are Canadian or not.
@Geri
I wish you success in your adventure and battle.
@Everyone
Thank you for your research and kindness, for we are not afforded this through official channels. Feels like a long hard road out of hell, but we’ll get there. At worst, we all Renounce in the next few years. And hopefully the Republicans shoot down the bill (they are strongly against FATCA).
Lastly, the IRS doesn’t even have funding to chase people down. The Democrats will receive a lot of flack over this FATCA spending by the Repubs.
@CaptainCanuck, yes I’ve been into Grim Dawn as well since well before the Kickstarter even happened. Don’t think it’ll ever replace TQIT as my number one game, but it’s definitely number two. Between them they pretty much make up my gaming heaven and I don’t really need any other games to play (big grin).