Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@Dianne
Congratulations…
I am glad that the CROWN CORPORATION held up in your claim…
(just one more confirmation that people should do their homework here)
I am set to relinquish my citizenship in February. I sent in my forms to relinquish based on my becoming a Canadian citizen in 2007. But I have been losing sleep… My understanding of form 8854 is that my “expatriation” date for tax purposes is the date I give formal notice to the consulate (February 2015) or the date the CLN is ISSUED. Can anyone confirm this? Has anyone received a backdated CLN and filed their taxes for the previous five years regardless of the date of the expatriation ACT (2007 in my case). I do not want to be in that 2007 tax situation, as the rules were very different and would be punitive. Any comments would be appreciated…
The reason I decided to relinquish instead of straight out renouncing is due to the cost… I registered both my children as US birth abroad (I was also a birth abroad) and the renunciation costs for the three of us, plus tax preparation is daunting to say the least. At this point I am feeling that if they offer me the option to just renounce I just might do it. Go into debt for a lifetime of freedom…
@Pacifica777 Just to let you know the chief, Western Hemisphere Affairs Division now is Geoffrey J. Martineau.
readytogo I gather you do not want to include 2007 in your 5 yrs. of filings. Is that correct?
As per usual, the form and instructions are unintelligible and written so as not to be understood by mere mortals.
The instructions say two entirely different things. Firstly “You are considered to
have expatriated on the date you relinquished your citizenship” Most reasonable people would think that date was the day when you became Canadian.
But wait! Later they say ” You are considered to have relinquished your U.S. citizenship
on the earliest of the following dates. 1. The date you renounced your
U.S. citizenship before a diplomatic or consular officer of the United States………
2. The date you furnished to the State Department a signed statement of
your voluntary relinquishment of U.S. nationality confirming the performance
of an expatriating act ……. ”
Take them at their word. The form and instructions both say your relinquishment is the day of your appointment to tell them of your having become a Canadian.
Remember, the only contact between state and IRS will be to give the IRS your name and social security number.
On form 8854 you can fill in 2015 as your year of expatriation which will preclude your having to file for 2007.
Apparently very very few 8854s are audited for those who owe little or nothing.
@ Cheryl,
Thanks for the update!
@readytogo,
As @Portland said, for the IRS and Form 8854 there is no doubt that your expatriation date is the date of your appointment.
@Portland PLC and @WhatAmI Thank you for your comments… you are confirming my reading of the instructions, meaning I would be filing starting 2010. They certainly do not make it easy given they seem to change the rules so often — and so often retroactively! I will be breathing easier soon…
Just to be specific, State forwards a copy of the CLN to IRS (7 FAM 1243), so they get name, date and place of birth, date and nature of expatriating act, but don’t actually get the social security number,
@pacifica777 Thank you. I will take a good look at these…
I am confused by the relinguishing acts. According to one website I just read, if you formally become a citizen of another country (as I did in 1975 in Canada) it is a relinquishing act if you are over 18. Does this mean I am not a US citizen?
Thanks
@ken,
That is correct, as long as you stopped behaving as a US citizen. For example, stopped voting, stopped filing US taxes, stopped using or renewing a US passport, etc. And, in 1975 you had to have obtained Canadian citizenship with the knowledge and intention that you would lose your US citizenship.
@ken, no, but it does mean you have a good case for relinquishment. If you gained Canadian citizenship with the intent or knowledge that you would lose your American one, then you can apply to a US embassy/consulate for a Certificate of Loss of Nationality (CLN). It’s becoming essential to have one of these if your Canadian passport shows a US birthplace or your bank queries your US Person status.
It would also mean that having done the relinquishing act so long ago that, assuming you haven’t been filing US tax returns, you have no need to start now. If you have been filing and/or had/renewed an American passport since you acquired Canadian citizenship then your case for relinquishment has gone out of the window and renunciation is the only option for you.
Start your research here:
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/how-to-renouncerelinquish/
@ken If you were a U.S. citizen only and then went through the citizenship process in Canada and became a Canadian citizen in 1975 with the intention of giving up your U.S. citizenship *and* since that date have done nothing which would appear to the U.S. as reclaiming your U.S. citizenship (voting in the U.S., applying for a passport, moving there to live etc) you have relinquished your U.S. citizenship and are a Canadian citizen only.
Better yet, you have no tax or other filing obligations. I was in this situation (Canadian citizenship in 1973) and only found out about this whole FATCA mess in 2011 because I was told by U.S. border guards that I was a U.S. citizen because my passport showed a U.S. birthplace. I started looking into it and panicked. My wife and I (both same situation) decided we should apply for a CLN backdated to 1973. We went to the Halifax consulate in January of 2012 and got our CLNs in July of 2012.
I think you are free and clear if you meet the stipulations I mention above.
Thank you for your reply. So if I am no longer a US citizen (as I have not acted as one – never had a passport, etc. and in 1975 I assumed I was no longer a US citizen does that mean this whole FATCA and amnesty thing does not apply to me even though I had a social security number (having worked in the US as a student while still a citizen)?
@ken, yes and no. Yes, because you’re not a US citizen, but no because of the points I made about the passport and bank. You won’t need to do any tax filing, but you should get a CLN to show your bank if they query your US Person status and also to avoid getting hassled by US border control if your Canadian passport shows your US birthplace.
Ken . Correct. This whole FATCA and amnesty thing does not apply to you. You can apply for and obtain a CLN if you wish. In your case they are free because you would be documenting a prior relinquishment rather than renouncing.
Briefly, The US supreme court in 1980 (Vance v Terrazas) ruled that a US cit. could not lose his US citizenship UNLESS he intended to. The state department reluctantly went along. If you intended to dump it when you became Canadian, then you are no longer American. Intent is key. Intent is proven by subsequent actions- no US passport, no US voting, no US tax filings, no US licenses etc.
In addition, there is very good authority that if you relinquished before 2004 you have no tax filing obligations. (links in the side bar to the right) Well done Good luck. Remember ADCS
@Ken, “So if I am no longer a US citizen”
It is not “if I am no longer” rather You are NOT a USC.
In 1975 under US Law, if you became a Canadian and it was your voluntary intention to lose your US Citizenship then you are no longer a USC today, full stop.
By law, there is NOTHING else you need to do, you are not a USC and if asked, you should clearly state NO.
You are not required today nor were you required in 1975 to get a CLN to document your loss of USC. There are documents form the US Congress that make this very clear.
Under the Canada IGA, you are not required to produce a CLN to show loss of USC but may provide a reasonable explanation as to how you lost your USC.
In comments, @SilverBirch self documented his/her loss of USC to a FI and was succesful. But keep in mind an attorney was retained to prepare a packet to make the case.
Having said all that which some may consider heresy, it is not a bad idea to get a CLN. People in Switzerland MUST get a CLN because thats a whole different kettle of fish.
Without a CLN, you may have problems at the US border. Though there are many reports of no problems at all.
It may be less of a hassle to get a CLN instead of preparing a self certification reasonable explanation.
Why would someone not get a CLN? They are no longer a USC and are sick and tired of FOREIGN GOVERNMENTS telling them to jump. They might be afraid of a Consulate picking out some small flaw of a long ago relinquishment and getting dragged back into the system. Should Saudi women get drivers licenses in Canada, after all its against “the law.”
Why should someone get a CLN? They have a slam dunk relinquishment and getting a CLN is straightforward and not time consuming. They might live in Switzerland! They must be able to cross the border and can not risk being refused entry.
Anyways, if you start filing taxes all of a sudden that could hurt your claim of relinquishment.
Regardless, you are NOT a USC and have not been one for 40 years. Do not have any other mindset.
Thank you to all for your replies. They have taken an incredible burden of worry off my shoulders. I may go for the CLN just to be on the safe side but in the meantime, I am incredibly grateful (and have donated to the cause). I imagine there are many Canadians who would benefit from this information about relinquishment.
I became a Canadian citizen in March, 2014. I have not traveled anywhere on my US passport since then, nor have I voted in a US election. I am considering relinquishment and wish some advice on the nuts and bolts.
I planned to attend a professional meeting in the US in April, and of course the tax time is coming up. Should I wait to present a request for loss of US citizenship by relinquishment until later in the year, or should I try to make an appointment to hand in the form at the Consulate and try to travel to the US on my Canadian passport whether or not the appointment has taken place? I assume I will have to file 2014 US tax forms. I have always been tax compliant while living in Canada.
Thank you for your advice.
If you filed 2013 taxes after becoming Canadian it might be iffy… If you think you might have a case of intent to relinquish your citizenship when you took the Canadian oath, it would be better to have an appointment with the consulate before your 2014 taxes are due…again, filing taxes is considered an act of a US citizen. Just my two cents. Good luck!
@Ken
With such good cards- you MUST go for the CLN. Otherwise you will always have this liability. You need that proof of intent. With that in a safe you will sleep well.
Margaret. It is straightforward.
You became Canadian in MAR 2014 You did so intending to give up your USness. Therefore you must not use your US passport to travel to your meeting in April. Similarly , your US tax filings end with the date in mar 2014 when you became Canadian. (or not-see below)
I don’t believe it makes any difference when you make your appointment at the consulate. In either case you will be traveling on a Canadian passport. If a border guy queries you your honest answer is that you relinquished your US citizenship in Mar 2014 when you became Canadian.
The CLN should cost nothing because you are documenting a prior relinquishment rather than renouncing.
You will be told that you should file form 8854 and a final partial year tax return for 2014 before the ?may deadline for 2014 tax returns. There is also a school of thought that your date of relinquishment is the date of your appointment and you will file for all of 2014 and part of 2015. If the instructions on 8854 are clear to you then you are a better man than I am Gubga Din.
Thanks very much, Portland PLC. This sounds quite reasonable. If I get turned away at the border, perhaps my travel insurance will refund the registration fees for the meeting, but, in time. all the inconvenience will be gone in any case.
I relinquished on 1974. I have always travelled to the US on my Canadian passport (never had a US one) which I do about three times a year. If I’m about my citizenship, which happens every third or fourth trip, I say I relinquished in 1974. I’ve never been asked for a CLN and I have never been turned back. Just answer their questions simply, don’t elaborate, and don’t argue. Sometimes they try to tell me I’m still American. I thank them for the info and say I will check with the embassy, which of course I never do, because I know I’m not a USC. Good luck!
@Margaret, I became a Canadian citizen Oct. 2013. I obtained a Canadian passport right after, but still had a U.S. passport that was to expire in July 2014. When going to the U.S. in Feb. 2014, I had both with me. Showing Customs my Canadian passport, they asked to see U.S. passport and said I should use that one. I came back and applied in March to U.S. embassy for an appointment, not really knowing which (relinquish/renounce) would apply to me. I got an appointment for July 2014. I wasn’t going to renew U.S. passport obviously, but it worked out perfectly. They told me I qualify as someone who can relinquish since I became Canadian, which I was surprised and thrilled as I was prepared to pay (at that time still) $450 to renounce. They took my U.S. passport, and I had no payment at all! My U.S. trip after citizenship did not seem to matter. As I DID go to the states using my U.S. passport before all this transpired, I don’t think you have any worries. Thank God for IBS, though, don’t you agree? Good Luck.