Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@ Pacifica777 – Your ‘contract analogy’ is very well said!
RE: Border Guards
Three news items for consideration:
– Morale at Dept of Homeland Security (border guards’ employer) is lowest of any US Federal Agency.
Source – Washington Post
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/federal-eye/wp/2014/12/09/morale-is-abysmal-at-homeland-security-heres-what-the-agency-plans-to-do/
– In the immigration battle between Obama and the incoming Republican majority in 2015 Congress, Homeland Security is a bargaining chip. The current spending bill to keep the US government open singles out Dept of Homeland Security for limited funding that expires in Feb 2015.
“The spending deal funds the Department of Homeland Security — the agency primarily assigned to carry out the president’s immigration policy — only through February, at which point Republicans will control both chambers of Congress and have the leverage to try to curtail Mr. Obama’s action. But some conservatives wanted to immediately defund the Homeland Security agency, despite the risk of a partial government shutdown…”
Source: NY TImes
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/12/us/congress-spending-bill.html
– Pew Institute estimates at least 12 million illegal immigrants living and working in the US.
That equals the entire population of Ontario Canada.
I agree – do not use roy berg at moodys unless you want to pay a lot of money – they just stiffed me for a lot!!
Following comments.
@LIONESS, I’m sorry to hear that. I presume, you must have discovered IBS, AFTER you agreed to use the services of Mr. Berg. If it is any consolation, getting into compliance is pretty expensive for most people (IRS doesn’t make it easy), regardless which compliance vulture…err, I mean, compliance professional you go to for help.
@LM
Re: “@Shovel, I reiterate – do we really expect kiosk border guards to be DOJ/citizenship law scholars?”
.
Silver birch asked for help with a quote. I knew the source and supplied it.
I wasn’t aware that simply sourcing a quote somebody asks for would make me someone that expects border guards to be law scholars.
And in fact, it doesn’t. So the answer to your rhetorical question is “No”. Please find another tree with a real squirrel in it to bark up.
@WhatAmI, regarding what use to be termed “undocumented emigrant” I shall now call “Self documented relinquishment.”
Lets start where we agree.
1.) A CLN should be assumed to be a requirement to enter the US for someone with a US POB.
2.) A CLN should make life easier in that you have a wider assortment of FIs.
Now lets look at some cases and ponder should they try to get a CLN;
1.) A USC born outside the US to one or two USC parents. If this person has performed a relinquishing act, is it in their total best interest to get a CLN?
2.) A USC born in the US whose non US nationality documentation does not have an unambiguous indication of a US POB. If this person has performed a relinquishing act, is it in their total best interest to get a CLN?
Lastly, lets think about relinquishing acts. After digging around I am finding more and more opportunities for Government Employment on a part time basis. Take a job, work for a day then quit. Also for some, they can register for an additional citizenship which would be relinquishing such as because of an Irish grandparent.
Sadly some people like Boris Johnson are screwed every which way.
But again a CLN is not required under law to lose USC. Once USC is gone, regardless how it goes away, life overseas becomes easier.
And yes, I do agree that there are situations where a person may need to get a relinquishing CLN and/or the case is a perfect slam dunk.
A concern that has been growing is that a person may have an obvious relinquishment, have no USC indica, but could get turned down by a Consulate and then their case has been adjudicated leaving them solely with a current date renunciation!!
@SilverBirch, you are probably going to also need to explain to them that you are ready and willing to litigate with them. ADCS may be interested in your situation as it applies to the lawsuit at hand.
@Brockers, I have now become very vocal if someone asks me about my accent and infers the USA. My first comment has become, “Do you ask customers with black skin what part of Africa they are from?”
We need to remember the entire line of FATCA questioing is racist, demeaning, discriminatory and illegal. We MUST make customer service reps and related employees UNCOMFORTABLE in asking the questions.
WOW! Just picked up my phone messages and there’s one from the Toronto Consulate wanting me to call back to confirm my address as my CLN has arrived!! Merry Christmas Kathy!
Once I have the paper in my hot little hands I will post a full summary of what has happened. But just to give some particulars:
– Born in US to Canadian parents (dual at birth).
– Registered Canadian birth abroad.
– Family moved back to Canada when I was 2.
– No US passport, taxes, voting etc. – only Canadian.
– Started working for municipal government Jan 23 1995.
– Relinquished based on working for government.
– Appointment to relinquish at Toronto Consulate – June 12, 2014.
Thank you all SOOOOOO much for your help and your support! I will update with the details as soon as my CLN arrives.
I think I’m in shock.
Congratulations, Kathy — another successful claim of relinquishment based on working for a foreign government of a person dual at birth!!!
Others — never let your local US Consulate / Embassy talk you into renouncing rather than having them send your claim to relinquishment on the Washington, DC!
and SUPPORT http://www.adcs-adsc.ca/.
@Kathy,
Whoo-HOO! Congratulations!!!
My appointment was a couple of months before yours and I’m still waiting. I’m thrilled that you are, as far as I know, the first to report a relinquishment based on municiple-level government employment. Nobody really doubted it, but you are the confirmation. I’m _so_ happy for you. OMG!!! I’m going to stand up and go do my Happy Dance around the house!
@ Kathy Congratulations! You are free
@ WhatAMI Hopefully yours is on its way.
@ Shovel – sorry if my comment seemed like a bark (or bite).
The question about whether we can expect border crossing guards to be citizenship scholars was (I thought) said rhetorically. Your quote was well placed and a timely reply, but how many of us are willing to hold a more than 5-minute at-the-border debate about these regs, even if we have the legislation in our hands and know that these copied documents are accurate and up to date.
Having dealt with border crossing guards a couple times over the many years (Cdn & US), perhaps I’m a chicken and would rather just side step the whole possibiltiy of trying to explain
Again, sorry if fur was ruffled…….
@Kathy, that’s great news, another CLN has arrived! Congrats and you’re not in shock, it’s called ecstacy.
@What, @calgary
Thanks. I’ll feel more like celebrating after I call tomorrow and confirm that it’s me and they didn’t make a mistake.
@WhatAmI I hope you hear something soon. I will keep my fingers crossed for you.
@George You pointed out in the past few days that I could likely use my Irish citizenship (gained through grandparents) to gain my kids their Irish citizenship. Thank you. I then stated that I didn’t think this would work as I would have to document it before my children turn 18 in which case the US would refuse it as a relinquishing act.
Another Brocker pointed out this morning (I can’t find the thread), that based on my Irish citizenship (which I have held since 1990), I can if fact document my children’s Irish citizenship. I’ve tried to find the posting/link from this Brocker but can’t find it. Their tip looks good though– it looks like I can document my children’s birth even after age 18. A huge shout out/thank you to this Brocker– I would reply to your post but unfortunately I can’t find it!
Anyways, one of my chidren is 19 years old– I’m going to help her register for her Irish citizenship when she comes home from university this week. My other kids are under 18 years of age– in order to give them the “relinquish card”, I will wait until they turn age 18 to document them as Irish citizens.
Thanks again,
BC Doc
BC_Doc,
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2014/12/10/u-s-treasury-admits-people-dont-emigrate-to-high-tax-countries-to-avoid-u-s-tax/comment-page-2/#comment-4793430 is what you are looking for, from heartsick on a different thread. Go for it — and good luck!!!
@ BC_Doc Irish Citizenship Rules As I understand it, you have to have held the Irish citizenship prior to your children being born and you can pass it on. They can claim it at any age. My grandfather was Irish so I was curious myself. I googled Irish Citizenship rules.
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/irish_citizenship_through_birth_or_descent.html
@Calgary– thank you!
@heartsick My Irish citizenship was documented long before I had children. Ireland is about to gain four more ex-pats. go raibh maith agat (Thank you!)
@Medea, @heartsick
Thanks. It will be ecstacy tomorrow when I call and the consulate confirms things. Not sure I’ll sleep much tonight.
@ BC_Doc Glad to be of help. Best wishes to you.
Sleep well, Kathy. You are free.
@Kathy
Congrats on your CLN. I’m wondering if you would be willing to talk to me privately. We have similar circumstances and I am hugely encouraged by your success. Can those in charge send my email to Kathy. Thanks
Done, Silver birch.
@BC-Doc; Link is here
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/irish_citizenship_through_birth_or_descent.html
First key phrase for US Relinquishment purposes;
“However before you can claim Irish citizenship, you must have your birth registered in the Foreign Births Register, which is maintained by the Irish Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade – see ‘How to apply’ below. If you are entitled to register, your Irish citizenship is effective from the date of registration – not from the date when you were born. ”
That is a KEY to relinquishing under 8 US Code 1481 A 1. The status of the 18 YEAR OLD needed to have changed and the Irish rules makes that clear.
Ireland calls it registration but 8 US Code says naturalisation. Here is where 7 FAM 1250 is your friend, google it and print out the five page pdf.
—
(1) INA 101(a)(23) (8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(23)) defines naturalization as …
“The conferring of nationality of a state upon a person after birth, by any means whatsoever.”
c. Terminology: Foreign state procedures for conferring nationality after birth may transpire under various terminology such as “naturalization,” “registration,” “declaration,” or “reintegration.” The terminology used is not determinative; the important factors are whether the person acquires the foreign nationality after birth and whether an application is made. If these factors are present, a potentially expatriating act has been performed.
—–
The application is online now but you print it all out at the end and send in with forms.
I would highly encourage each 18 year old to include in a cover letter something along the following;
“I am a Canadian Citizen by birth in Canada, I am also possibly considered by the US Government to be a US Citizen by descent from a parent however I have never had a US Passport. Applying for another citizenship is considered an expatriating act by the USA under 8 US Code 1481. It is my intention with this application for Irish Citizenship registration to be voluntarily relinquishing any US Citizenship that I may have.” Young Adult Signs plus maybe a witness/notary.
After young adult has Irish Passport they make a decision to get a CLN by the USG or simply self document knowing they otherwise have relinquished and have no US indica being born in Canada. But they can answer the Are you a USC question with certainty they are not.
Cheers,