Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@ peter54
1) NO … The consulate will take your US passport, send it to Washington, Washington cuts an ear off it to cancel it and then returns it to you with your CLN. It’s a good idea to ask for an “interim letter” to explain your lack of a US passport if you should decide to travel to the USA in the interim.
2) YES … so far
Of course you did that naturalization with the intent of relinquishing you US citizenship, right? Make sure your ducks are all in a row before entering the US consulate and read more here at Brock. BTW welcome and we hope you’ll donate to the ADCS fund. An anti-FATCA victory will hopefully turn the tide against US worldwide tax tyranny.
@ Peter54,
(1) The consulate keeps the US passport. It is returned to you marked cancelled (I forget the exact wording), sometimes with a few holes punched through it, in the envelope with your CLN.
(2) Yes, the $2350 fee applies only to renunciations.
peter54,
You will claim that relinquishment, which was your naturalization in another country — that act already done.
thanks to you all for the very helpful answers.
you probably just saved me $2350, i certainly will be sending a check to the cause.
Can anyone tell me how to obtain a copy of the oath I swore when taking Canadian citizenship or perhaps my citizenship file? I have the certificate and the card they issued. The relinquishing form ask questions about the oath that you swore. Also, can anyone advise me on completing the paperwork?
@ Ann #1 –
When I completed my renunciation in April, I looked up the Canadian Citizenship oath via Wikipedia. It has not been modified since 1977. So I just copied that and put it on my forms to the US Consulate – – no one questioned it
SEE: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath_of_Citizenship_%28Canada%29.
Ann#1 The forms are found on the link to the right-Dep’t of State forms etc.
Starting with DS4079
Confusion arises because the same form is used for 2 opposite purposes. Some want to ditch their USness, others want to keep or reacquire it.
In any case, all the questions are straightforward until you get to 13 Your object is to show you have few if any ties to the US. EG if you file tax returns you would be saying you think you are a US cit so say no if you can. Note the present tense.
If you were coerced into getting a US passport, say you were coerced. It is important to establish intent. I.E. when you became Canadian (or other) you intended to relinquish USness. Or if you renounce, you do so voluntarily.
Any specific questions regarding this or other forms can be dealt with as they arise. If you relinquished before June 2004, you have no tax filing obligations
Duke of Devon – I thought I had relinquished in December of 1993, but looking at my certificate I realized that I submitted the paperwork in the fall of 1993 and didn’t relinquish until December 1994. Do I have a problem? Do you need to make an appointment at the Embassy for relinquishing? I am concerned because today I had a message on my answering machine that the bank wanted to book a follow up appointment. They didn’t say with whom. She is my husband advisor and knows he is Canadian born. The advisor knows I am a Canadian born in the US, but had said to us previously that I had no US indica and it wasn’t her job to be looking for any or reporting it. She knows that I don’t have a number but was looking into what my status might be.
I don’t understand. What exactly did you do in Dec ’94? Is that when you became Canadian? Whether it was ’94 or ’93 makes no difference. If you became Canadian with the intent to relinquishing USness, then you are no longer American and better still have no tax filing obligations.
I don’t think you have a problem of any kind.
Make an appointment with the consulate to inform them that you intended to give up US citizenship when you became Canadian. Intent , as documented on DS4079 is important. Intent is a state of mind but is also a fact as documented by actions which is why they ask where you vote, where you own property, which passport you use and so on.
Since you have already relinquished, you don’t need to renounce and will save $2350. US
It will take a while to get the appointment and about 6 months to get the CLN.
As far as a bank is concerned, you are not American. Full stop. You have nothing to be concerned about . Be cool. You are in good nick.
If Proud Canadian is still monitoring this thread, you should be aware that you relinquished in 1974. That’s when you ceased to be American. What you are preparing to do now is to merely document that fact.
You have no US tax filing requirements and you do not pay a fee.
@Duke of Devon Thanks for the confirmation. I now have my head around the fact that I will be applying for a CLN to confirm what happened in 1974 when I became a Canadian, i.e. I relinquished. Unfortunately, because the form is the same for renunciation and relinquishment, I was finding it difficult to respond to the questions in a manner consistent with seeking acknowledgment rather than permission (to renounce). I’ve not yet requested an appointment but will update here at IBS once I do. Again, thanks to everyone for the info and support.
@Proud Canadian, there’s no need to seek permission to renounce. It’s your right to do so if you wish.
The the 4079 form is used for is to assess you for relinquishment, i.e. whether you really intended to relinquish or not, or to assess whether someone still has it even if they think they lost it. That’s why so many questions about your ties to the US, i.e. voting, taxes, family, etc.
None of these questions apply when you renounce because it doesn’t matter if you voted in a US election the day before, paid your taxes up to date and then walked into the embassy/consulate to do the deed. The fact that you decided today to voluntarily renounce is all that matters. Though some embassies/consulates use this form for renunciations it’s really irrelevant to that scenario. I didn’t have to fill one in when I renounced in Bern.
Duke of Devon – Yes, 1994 is when I took the oath and became a citizen. Thank you for the information. I will do the DS4079 and book an appointment. As anyone else done this at the Calgary Embassy? What should I be prepared for?
@Ann no1, you can read about other peoples’ experiences at various embassy/consulates around the world here:
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Consulate-Report-Directory-2014.09j.pdf
Hi Ann, I dealt with the consulate in Calgary from the April – Aug, 2014. They always replied quickly to my emails and were quite thorough in giving the details of what forms I had to fill in and the security system at the consul etc. They were very understanding when I had to cancel my first appointment and I think they worked me in for a second. They also gave me a list of hotels close by (the cheapest was the downtown Sandman which was a 20-30 min walk or was directly on the rapid rail line).
My only problem was they didn’t seem to understand the law that applied to my case but I believe it is not commonly used. If you relinquished by becoming a Canadian citizen and taking an oath it sounds like you won’t have any trouble.
Just be forewarned that they seemed to want me to give up on relinquishing and just renounce. I had to insist on my file being sent to the Department of State. If you’re sure of your situation stand firm.
Good luck and let us all know how long it takes to get an appointment.
Cheryl – thanks for the advice. My employer is a lawyer. He has been in touch with the law society today . We are waiting to hear back. I have never performed an act that would make me a citizen – no SS#, no passport, never voted in a US election, lived in Canada from a young age, visited the US twice since I relinquished, married to Canadian, children who aren’t US citizens, member of Conservative party, voted in every Canadian election. Did they give you a time frame in which you could expect a decision?
@Ann. They said 6 months but I think that’s overly optimistic. Others most recently are waiting 12-14 months and as there are many more application, I’m not even hoping for less than 18 months. Better to be surprised early. Best of luck to you with all of this.
Renounced over a year ago.
Have sent all forms including 8854. Have received CLN. Still NOT named in “the quarterly list”. Maybe better luck next quarter….
@ Allou
Hubby renounced in October 2012 and still has not been put on the “name and shame” list of renouncers. Alternately, our son renounced in August 2013 & his name was listed about a year later. Who knows why…..
Hi, Thank you to everyone for sharing their knowledge and sorry for posting on the wrong thread. Just wondering if there are any young adults (over 19) who have renounced? What was your experience like? My young adult child is in the process of renouncing. S(H)e is a US citizen by birth (lived in the US only a few months, how I wish I could go back in time and tell my younger self to get back up to Canada to give birth!) and Canadian at birth through me. Both parents not US citizens. S(He) was told that they must renounce not relinquish because they are a dual citizen at birth. The DS-4079 Form is confusing! S(He) has made their own mind up about what they want to do. We would have supported any decision. Any help would be appreciated
@Canadian eh!
That’s my position too (except for being just over 19 … I’m 2.5 times that). Born in the US to two Canadian-only parents. Moved to Canada when 1.5 years old, and lived here ever since. She will need to renounce, and you need to watch out for the “covered expatriate” status. For myself, the easiest thing to do was become tax compliant for the last 5 years and file the last 6 years of FBARs (a “quiet disclosure”) and renounce formally at the consulate. I did the tax forms myself, with lots of reading of the guidance of Phil Hodgen and John Richardson (and some others), given that my tax situation was pretty simple, and my income below the tax minimums generally.
Canadian eh! 4079 is not strictly applicable to those who wish to renounce. It’s purpose is to sort out whether or not someone’s relinquishing act was sufficiently serious for them to have lost citizenship. It doesn’t apply to someone who renounces. Renouncing is everyone’s right and cannot be refuted as long as it’s voluntary.
We can advise on tax matters later. As I said before, you will be told everything from why bother? to you MUST do this and that and everything in between.
Canadian eh! If your son or daughter chooses to file the supposedly required tax forms, he will have one advantage. Expatriates who are dual citizens at birth do not have to detail their net worth on form 8854. He is however supposed to affirm that he has been tax compliant for the 5 yrs. prior to renouncing. It’s complex and will take some time to understand.
@LM – interesting. I also know someone who renonced a couple of months before me and was “listed” about 6 months later. I wonder if anyone reading here at IBS is writing articles about “the list”. There is certainly no way the federal list reflects the true nummer of renunciations, relinquishments and green card returns. The actual number must be thousands more per year.
@Duke of Devon, Canadian eh!
My understanding is that a person who is a dual from birth must still complete the Detailed Balance Sheet and Income Statement in Part V of Form 8854. I recall that Phil Hodgen has covered this point in one of his blog posts. It is necessary to complete this part of the form in order to be able to attest that one has complied will all tax code requirements. However, there is an advantage in being a dual citizen from birth in that a high net worth is not a cause for becoming a covered expatriate and such a person need not complete Part IV Section B.