Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
I went to the SSA office in Niagara Falls to get my slave brand … I mean, my SSN (I had never had one before). There was no need to make an appointment, in fact, there was not even the opportunity: it’s first come, first served.
That being said, they were very quick and efficient. I only had to wait about 10 minutes or so, and the actual time spent with the agent was about 10 minutes as well. Do make sure you have all the required documentation, of course.
I’m just getting the number so I can do my IRS paperwork in preparation for renouncing. But it still felt very strange to apply. Driving back into Canada was a sweet relief. When the CBSA agent asked me what I had bought in the 2 hours I was in the US, he was a bit puzzled by my enthusiastic “Nothing! Not a coffee, not even a bit of gas!” My mild protest to being forced to drive for hours to get branded.
@Jennifer, I have “heard” that some send cash to that address so privacy is ensured. They take USD, Euro, Sterling…….
Not sure if my last post worked. I am needing to know if you need to book an appointment before crossing the border to get a SSN. The contact # they have does not work in Canada. If anyone knows, can you let me know. I was planning on driving there tomorrow if I don’t need an appointment.
Well Toronto Consulate asked that I wait till October to file for an appointment because of backlog, so I sent it off this morning.
Got a reply very quickly and have an appointment for relinquishment on April 2/2015.
@EC
Well, the fee hike has done nothing to stem the tide of renunciations, has it? Sorry you have to wait so long.
@Bubblebustin
Yes it would be nice to get it over with. The longer it goes on the more they can think of changes. I am hoping every thing goes smoothly. The bank has been cooperative, so no complaints yet. As soon as everything is over and I know I’m done with this, then I will have a nice conversation with the Lawyer and Tax consultant for their useless advice. Cost me $450 for consultation fees and if I would have followed their advice it would have cost me $5,000 to $10,000 min. It won’t be a nice conversation. Thanks to Brock it has made the process bearable.
@Accidental American, As I remember it you did need an appointment but, that was for the Ogdensburg office and I do not think they operate every day. I would just check the hours for Buffalo, explain when you get there that you called numerous times and no one answered. It’s really all you can do.
@ EC – 6 month appointment? That length of wait is really awful and pushes the whole process off another year for you. Last year I wrote to them (the Toronto Consulate) in early-mid-March and was assigned a mid-April renunciation appointment that I happily accepted. They must be getting masses of requests (or have cut back on their staff, which is always a possibility). So sorry to hear that this is the current state of affairs.
My husband was born in the US in 1952 and moved with his parents on his 17th birthday to Canada in 1969. In 1998 he became a Canadian citizen believing that he was renouncing his US citizenship at that time.
Since he moved to Canada he has only ever resided here, raised a family here, owned property here, voted here, earned an income here and attended school here. He has no ties to the US. He has never filed with the IRS.
He is 62, employed as a physician in Ontario and is incorporated. He is seeking advice regarding next moves at the US Consulate. He has yet to contact them.
@Patricia Spink, he can request a relinquishment appointment at the embassy and get a CLN. He won’t need to do anything about US taxes. He’ll need to fill in this form for the embassy.
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/97025.pdf
Does he still have his Canadian citizenship certificate? If not, I believe you can order one.
@Patricia Spink, it sounds like an “easy” relinquishment backdated. You/he need to be absolutely sure he has not had a US Passport issued since 1998. If he had one issued before, hopefully not used after 1998.
If he has an old 1960s green passport with dust on it, that would be perfect to hand in.
Do NOT let a cross border lawyer get to him!!!! A physician with a foreign corporation will face bankruptcy…
As MF suggested, get the form and slowly fill it in. He will also need to be able to confirm that he knew this would be an expatriating act and that it was his full intention to expatriate. If he was not aware of it, he could not have relinquished.
@Patricia, Please donate!!!! This FATCA-Fire needs to be doused with cold Canadian water. Your husband, your family will never be safe until the Government of Canada steps in.
It will be a good thing for your husband to have a backdated CLN but I hate to say this, its not an absolute guaranty in this new era. Having a US Place of Birth seems to be an indellible tattoo and will cause him and you heartache over the years to come.
Yes he still has his documents. The only passport he has ever held is Canadian.
Does adopting Canadian Citizenship constitute an expatriating act or completing the 97025?
@Patricia Spink,
I have such empathy for you and your family’s situation. Unfortunately, while your husband (and everyone else he knows) may believe he has no ties to the US, the US State Department and IRS are going to see things quite differently and, given the efforts that they are going to to find us stray expats (and our money), they are not going to go away.
Additionally, since he was born in the US, you both need to realize that any children he has will also be deemed “US Persons” for the IRS to pursue. So this is a broad family issue/situation. The fact that he is an incorporated professional (and likely has reasonable if not broad wealth from this profession) complicates matters further in terms of taking steps – – what steps to take first – – to work this through. Expect to be working on this for a year minimum and probably more as there are likely to be a number of steps he and your family will need to make decisions on and, then, implement before you can move on to the next step. This is COMPLICATED AND FROUGHT WITH POSSIBLE PITFALL MISTAKES ALONG THE WAY.
After reading more at this site about the several disclosure options, be very very careful in the selection of legal and accounting professional supports to work with. You need to know that the persons you choose are highly trained and absolutely up to date on all these massive complex regulations, choices and approaches. There are some highly knowledgable and supportive advisers out there; they will be expensive but, in the long run for families in your situation, will look at all legal options and hopefully be able to significantly diminish the price (in time and money) in the long run. However, be well aware that there are also lots of newbie-law and accounting professionals who are using this crisis as a way to set themselves up a new professional niche (based on superficial knowledge of the situation and options), Avoid these like the plague. In other words, acknowledge from the start that good advisers are going to be costly but worth the price. But DO READ LOTS HERE FIRST so you know what you are asking for (and what you want to avoid). And don’t even think about contacting the Consulate/Embassy or IRS until you know LOTS more about the options.
Others can direct you to specific parts of this website (and elsewhere) to do further reading. But start by taking a look at the “Important Information” section in the banner to the right of this page. Feel free to ask questions as you go through the articles and comments; it certainly is a major learning curve. And, if you can, attending a presentation by John Richardson would be well worth your time (and travel if needed). It took hubby and me (both were US-born) and our 2 adult children (both Cdn born) about 2 years to finally work through what needed to be done – – and hubby and I had been fully IRS-form-compliant throughout the past years of dual-status.
I wish you well with this major life-changing task. The folks here at IBS will be amazingly helpful but we all had to go through the drudgery ourselves as everyone’s issues and situations are different. Just know that you are not alone in this dark jungle.
@ Patricia Spink Your husband’s case looks good for a backdated CLN since he intended to renounce when he acquired the Canadian citizenship. Hopefully he will be successful, you also avoid the newly increased renounce fee. Be aware that if you have children there is a possibility that your husband has passed on US citizenship to them. Only five years of residency in the US (prior to the birth), two of which must be after the age of 14, are required for a US citizen to pass on citizenship if the child is born on or after Nov 14 1986 in another country. Before this date 10 years of residency are required, 5 of which must be after the age of 14. See: http://www.uscis.gov/us-citizenship/citizenship-through-parents.
@ George & Media Fleecestealer
If Patricia Spink’s husband never had a US passport (and likely never voted) in the US), these both certainly bode well RE possible relinquishment rather than renunciation. However, can you state with authority what the cut-off year was (if any) for this option; that is, one’s taking Cdn (or other) citizenship with the expectation that this meant automatic loss of US citizenship and having this claimed understanding be accepted by the State Department? This family would still have to look at the citizenship of any children he has had born prior to 1998.
All children were born before 1986.
@ Patricia Spink You must be relieved that this US mess has not been passed on to your children. You have come to a good site, lots of knowledgeable people here. There have been people steered into the tax system who could have reliquished like your husband but were told to file taxes. It is a shame that the lawyers and tax professionals are more interested in making money than helping their clients determine whether or not they are even still citizens of the US. Does not sound very ethical to me.
Patricia Spink. Your husband is in a very good space. He shouldn’t rush until you both have a complete understanding of this.
Firstly google Vance v. Terrazas. This will illustrate the importance of INTENT. Your husband intended to relinquish US citizenship when he became Canadian. He has done nothing since to counter that fact. In the eyes of the state dep’t , these facts constitute irrefutable confirmation of his intent. Therefore he is no longer a US citizen. He also has NO tax filing obligations ( see the link to the right – for those who expatriated before June 2004)
2 questions remain. 1) does he need a CLN ? Given his probable net worth, I will go against my usual advice and say that it would be a good idea. It’s 6 months for an appointment in TO. Somewhat less in Vancouver , Montreal etc. and a year before it’s approved. There is no fee as yet. Don’t accept no for an answer to his eligibility for a CLN. his case is ironclad.
2). Are your children American.? We have had this debate over and over on IBS. They certainly have a CLAIM to US citizenship. However most of us believe that if they were not born there that US citizenship is not imposed upon them against their wishes.
As George said, avoid cross border accountants like the plague. You don’t need one. The cost for an incorporated M.D would be 4 figures for the accountant and high 6 figures to attempt to be tax compliant. Since your husband is not American he shouldn’t give a moment’s thought to that.
You might consider John Richardson’s legal advice. It should be well worth it.
You are going to save a bundle of worry and maybe a bundle of dosh. Consider a donation to ADCS.
http://www.blick.ch/people-tv/schweiz/ex-miss-schweiz-lauriane-gillieron-fuer-die-liebe-will-sie-den-us-pass-id3168983.html
Should we warn her? Former miss Switzerland wishes to become US citizen.
@LM, I don’t know the cut off year for automatic assumption of loss of US citizenship, but it really doesn’t matter. Her husband at the time believed that he was losing that citizenship and therefore intended to do so.
I doubt he’ll need any accounting advice for himself as there’s no obligation for him to do anything on the tax side unless there’s something about being incorportaed that might affect that.
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/06/19/if-your-expatriation-date-is-before-2004-the-rules-are-different/
However, I do agree that any children need to think and investigate whether or not they could be classed as American citizens in any way. Still, if they were born in Canada I strongly suggest that, unless they want to claim the US citizenship, they simply forget that their father is/was an American. They are not in the US system and cannot be traced in any way.
@AJ, given all the publicity there’s been about FATCA here over the years I think she knows what she’s getting into if she goes that route. If not, she’ll soon find out.
Patricia Spink. You asked ‘Does adopting Canadian citizenship constitute an expatriating act?’ Absolutely when done with intent to relinquish. Intent is confirmed by subsequent actions- not using a US passport, voting, filing taxes and so on. See the link at the top right to Dep’t of State forms…..procedure manuals…… ,especially 7 FAM 1250.
What is your reference to 97025?
Good luck; keep us posted.
@Patricia Spink, Dittos on my friend the honourable Duke of Cornwall.
Again, fill the form out and take your time, make sure its ironclad. A 62 year old incorporated medical doctor has the smell of $$$$$$$$$$ going south.
What you do NOT want to have happen is risking a CLN not being approved. Your description on this blog sounds iron clad but until you sit down with the form and take your time.
I will differ slightly with my friend concerning children. If they are considered by a Foreign Government to be a Citizen, then they are. However, it is up to the children to make themselves “known.”
How can I best say this? Knowing that you are a citizen of a Foreign Land, makes it easier for you and encourages you better to stay out of the glare of said Foreign Land.
@Patricia Spink, you need to know the law as it existed when your husband became Canadian.
You can go to the following site and then cut paste into Word.
Then look at the “notes” page and reverse engineer each amendment to get what it looked like in 1998.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1481
LM there is no cut off date. Prior to about 1980, ( I say about because the Supreme Court and the state dep’t didn’t agree). It was automatic. If you became a citizen of another country , you lost your US citizenship.
After about 1980 INTENT became important. If you became a citizen of another country with intent to lose US citizenship then you ‘performed a relinquishing act’ and are no longer a US CITIZEN. A CLN documents that fact.