Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@Mettleman, ditto exactly what Duke of Devon said. A CLN is not required only a copy of the Canadian Citizenship Cert with a letter of explanation citing the US Code section. They could also swear an Affadavit before a notary/lawyer attesting they relinquished.
@Allou, I relinquished a decade ago, I promptly sent a letter to the voter registration people that I relinquished and they quickly removed me no hassle. I made copies of everything to document my relinquishment file. 🙂
@allou, That’s interesting because I had myself removed from voter registration roles without an problem and this was before I relinquished. It required nothing more than an a phone call. Perhaps it varies from state to state?
I had a voicemail message today from the Vancouver embassy regarding my request for a relinquishing appointment. This is the first I’ve heard from them since sending in the paperwork several weeks ago. I will call them tomorrow and let you know if I will be able to get an appointment in December. Anyone else (@DM, @Tonya.. @lioness) hear anything?
@Somerfugl After my voice message from Vancouver a week or 10 days ago, I have called the number provided several times and left all of my phone numbers and have not heard back.
I e-mailed Calgary to change the date of my appointment and I heard back straight away.
I would like to donate but don’t know where on the web or where to mail a donation.
I prefer to use prepaid credit cards online for secrity reasons. Perhaps you could e-mail me and tell me how – I already have a stamped partially addressed envelope at home! Jen
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@Jennifer Ellen Kolarik You can donate by clicking on this page in the upper right corner ADCS. It will lead to the website with all the information. or http://www.adcs-adsc.ca/DonateADCS.html
I used the paypal option a few days ago, it worked really well.
Thanks for the info @DM. That is frustrating they won’t return your calls. I will let you know if I have any luck.
A commenter writes on Robert Woods blog, as regards renunciation appointments, “Currently Toronto is booking in April 2015.” Good grief, 7 months! What will they do when it reaches 12 months or more? Raise the fee by another five-fold? Perhaps there should be a place on this site where the current waiting time is tracked for each consulate.
Maybe all who see renouncing/relinquishing as part of their future should write to one or more consulates now and ask for an appointment. Even if you really want an appointment in January 2016 (because of needing 5 years of past tax compliance) it may be best to try to book now, and then cancel the booking if it comes too soon, repeating the procedure until an early 2016 appointment is obtained. Would that be possible? Or does one get a black mark for cancelling an appointment and then rebooking?
I finally heard from the US Consulate today (after sending in a request August 28). They actually were pretty apologetic regarding the fee increase and did take the time to say that they actually tried to bargain with the State Govt. to either lower the fee or use the old one in cases (like mine) where the person initiated contact before the September 12 change. However, no dice. 2350USD still stands 🙁
My Appointment is for the end of October, so there’s still hope for those who want to renounce/relinquish or as I say…reinvent themselves. So far they are not at Toronto or Calgary’s times of next year…so hurry.
After a few tries I got through to the Vancouver consulate today. I had sent in an appointment request and the forms a few weeks ago, and had a voice mail message yesterday.
The woman I spoke to was quite friendly. I had requested a mid-December or early January appointment. She said they were booking October now and didn’t know yet if they would have any appointments available in December. I told her I was trying for Vancouver rather that toronto because it is easier for me to take the Skytrain downtown when I am visiting Vancouver versus driving a couple of hours to get to Toronto from my home in Ontario . She actually asked me if I knew what the booking times were for Toronto so I told her I had heard March or April. She said Vancouver will be getting that long too, and she was now answering requests in order of receiving them (and she had a lot of requests.)
She then warned me about the significant fee increase. I told her I was relinquishing not renouncing, so she looked at my file and said she thought I had good grounds to relinquishment but the decision was not hers to make. She also told me that a second appointment might be necessary, but that is rare. I told her I would take my chances.
She said she would phone me as soon as she knew what would be available in December.
So as @Tonyafrom Terrace mentions, hurry if you want to book in Vancouver.
@EC September 19, 2014 at 2:55 pm RE “Today I got a reply from ScotiaBank and it looks like all I have to do is fill out the W8-BEN and the account will not be flagged. So I hope that is the end. I will post when I get a final reply.”
I was away on holidays when you posted this but thought a lot about this comment. Is ScotiaBank presenting it’s customers with W8-BENs to fill out? Are other banks/FFIs doing this too?
I live in Canada. I bank in Canada. What place or standing does either a W8 or W9-BEN have in Canada????? These are US IRS forms and, from my perspective, have no right to be required of individuals living in/bankiing in foreign countries (like Canada – – we are still a separate country are we not?????).
Now, if the FFI wants to use this form, that is their business. But for the customer, it seems illegal for one to be required to fill in (and sign) a legal document from another country. If my FFI ever sends me such a form (since I do have a US birth place) and they say I must provide this information in order to maintain my account, I may agree to provide them with the information, BUT NOT BY FILLING IN THIS US FORM!!!!!
I can provide them the data (e.g. via a letter or point-form outline and the FFI can fill out the form with the data I provide. It is their job (not mine) to maintain this information on the form of their choice. If they have no problem of using a legal form from the US, that is their choice/their business. But there is no reason I have to do so. What do others think of this idea?
@LM, I think if the Canadian banks act in the same way as the Swiss ones, if you try that you’ll find yourself being considered wilfully non-compliant and have your account closed. Okay, not likely to happen in Canada, but as the whole FATCA law is illegal really – yet everyone jumps to keep the US happy – why quibble over a simple form? Yes, the bank could fill the form in using info you provide, but it still needs to be signed by you so you may as well fill it in yourself.
It may depend on your individual circumstances and the bank itself. When UBS sent me their USP status questionnaire I told them that I’d just renounced and they were happy to wait for the CLN to arrive. I sent them a copy and they just the wanted USP questionnaire to be filled in for their files, no W-8EN. I didn’t let Swiss PostFinance know and got sent a W-9 to complete, told them I’d renounced and sent a copy of the CLN and they required the W-8EN to be filled out. If I’d told PF straight off would I have needed to fill in a W-8EN? I don’t know. UBS is much bigger globally than PF and of course has already been hit by the US courts for helping tax evaders. Also UBS may fall under a different category of the IGA agreement than the one that PF decided to say they were. And iirc it actually says in the Swiss IGA that W-9’s and W-8EN’s will be used by the FFI’s so it may be the same in the Canadian one.
@LM
Others have speculated that every bank customer on the planet will eventually have to fill out these forms just to cover their bank’s you-know-what’s. The US has proven that the world’s banking system is theirs and we just get to bank in it.
@LM
You have to be careful you don’t shoot yourself in the foot. There’s lots of things I would like to do but. Every situation is different and everyone has to make their own decision. Believe me this whole thing is so stupid it’s pathetic. So if I have to fill a form, regardless who’s it is, I will fill out that form to get me to the next step which is to stop the information from getting to CRA. When you get into this mess the best way is to have banks try to be on your side, because they could make things worse than it alredy is. In my case I am offering the bank an alternative to a CLN. So yes the W-8en might be a US form, so what. If it get’s me where I need to get I really don’t care. But I do agree with you, but not to the extent of shooting myself in the foot.
@ EC
You are right, of course; it’s just my need to passive-aggressively balk at this imperialistic requiremnt and local-bank stupidity. I now have my CLN and can show this; but as now only a single-national it is SOOOOOOOO offensive to be using a US form at my non-US bank to prove that I’m not a USP (something they should not be asking about anyway).
I know one thing I will never, ever trust my banker again and I had a great relationship with the person who handles our accounts before this. I may fill out the W8-Ben and I will provide a copy of my CLN *providing it EVER freaking arrives!* but, I will never feel the same way about taking advice from these people again. It has ruined my relationship forever. I will no longer trust them in any way on any matter. I hope you bankers are reading this. You are back stabbing long term customers and selling out Canada to cover your butts. Whose to say you won’t confiscate everyone’s money if you find some “law” that justifies you doing so to your benefit in the future.
Going to a credit union after this on principle in full with our mortgage and everything even though it will cost us more to do so. A LOCAL credit union that reinvests in my community.
@ Atticus
I share your mistrust. Since I will never know where I stand with my USP status or with my bank (i.e. a large credit union which has signed up for reporting) I will make as little contact with them as possible. I don’t feel comfortable right now tying up my funds for any fixed period in any investment — not even a 1 year GIC. All of my deposits are poised to exit at the first hint of trouble (simple savings and chequing only). Thankfully there’s a small, independent, unreporting credit union in a nearby town to escape to when the time comes. This means I get very little in interest payments (less than 1%) so I have to drain my accounts to survive what is now a smashed to smithereens retirement. This is way off the topic of renunciation but renunciation is meaningless to me personally because I don’t have any US citizenship to renounce. Would if I had it though. I’m so disgusted with the Harper government (it’s not just FATCA either) that I sometimes feel I should renounce my Canadian citizenship but then I’d become a stateless, alien fugitive in the only country that’s meant “home” for me all my life.
Does anyone know if you need to book an appointment to go to Buffalo to get a SSN? I tried calling the # and it does not work in Canada. They also don’t respond back when you e-mail them. I don’t want to drive all the way there to find out I needed to book first. Everything I try to do is soooo difficult. If I hadn’t already gotten an accountant to prepare 5 years I would change my mind and never cross the boarder. It also is impossible to book and appointment to renounce. Argh!
@ accidental American,
I had the same problem with the IRS number, it would not work from Canada. But it did work with Skype. Give that a try and let us know if it works.
The non toll free number for the social security admin for new cards is 410 965 9334. Hope it works.
@ Accidental American.
I do not know about making an appointment with the SS office, but I do know that there is a phone number you can call from Canada. See http://www.ssa.gov/foreign/ontario.htm for Ontario and http://www.ssa.gov/foreign/canada.htm for other provinces. The number for Buffalo (actually Niagara Falls) is 1-877-480-4992. Sometimes it will ring 10 -15 times and then cut you off; this means the office is +++ busy. You’ll be more successful if you try calling later in the day and mid-week.
to co-ordinator (777?) and “heartsick”.
got almost screedy in my message yesterday- feel free to delete
just tried to donate with prepaid AMEX card- got refused. Please give me a PO box # where I can donate.
777 – you can use my e-mail address to contact me – I know it doesn’t get shared! Thanks!
ps just sent off my info to lawyer re renunciation Seulement canadienne soon I hope! Jen
feel free to add me to that list that shows other regular contributors -sidebar J
to co-ordinator
Sept 28th note a bit screedy – feel free to delete
tried to donate prepaid card refused
keep losing messages I’m trying to send today
ok to use my e-mail so I can donate know it does not get shared
can youadd me to your regular correspondence list?
Jen
@ Jennifer
The mailing address on the ADCS site is:
ADCS (Alliance for the Defence of Canadian Sovereignty)
Attn: Stephen Kish
283 College Street
PO Box 67678
Toronto, ON
M5T 3M1
That’s where I send my cheques and they have all arrived safe and sound. Thanks for joining in!
@Jennifer, I think the snail mail address Embee provided will work brilliantly. I donate through email money transfer and all has been well with that method too.
@Accidental American, I do believe you need an appt. I had to call the office in Ogdensburg, New York. I did not have trouble getting through. As it turns out I actually didn’t need to update my SS number. I had an old one in my maiden name and I just used that. It was SO old and had not been used since I was in my early twenties. I still was able to put in my married name beside it on any forms requiring such and use that number. I know Ogdensburg is a lot further for you to go but, it’s a small office and it might be easier to get through to, get an appt. and get this part over with if you consider using it. I feel for you as to how tedious, expensive and time consuming this all is! It’s just horrendous.