Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
Joe, if that is all they issued back in 1980 then it’s sufficient, especially as you have a Canadian passport as well. If you have a commemorative certificate already then take that too, but I wouldn’t think you’d need to order one specially for this.
@ Joe,
Things do vary from consulate to consulate, so I may be borrowing trouble here. But I’d be concerned if they want proof of the date of expatriation. At Toronto, they wanted my commemorate certificate to verify the exact date in order to fill in the CLN with the date my citizenship ended. I’m from 1979, at that time they were giving both a commemorative certificate (with a date) and wallet card (without one) with matching serial numbers, so I had both.
All I got was a great big paper certificate with a colourful coat of arms or semthin on the front with my name and a serial number and stamped date on the back. Kinda hard to carry around, especially in the rain, but I guess itll do.
How far in advance should the online documents be completed and sent? The appointment is for late June. Thanks
Re commemorative certificates: my understanding is that the commemorative certificates issues until recently had on them the date that they were made up, *not* the date citizenship was acquired. Things changed recently (Feb of 2012?) and now the citizenship certificate that they give you has your date of citizenship acquisition (I imagine there’s a proper technical term for this) on it.
@Joe,
When I attended my first meeting (relinquishment from 1972) in Vancouver. They were most adamant that the citizenship certificate MUST SHOW the date of naturalization. That is the date which will eventually be put on the CLN.
@tdott,
Seems the contents of the certificates has varied over time. So, mine had the date of citizenship acquisition on it. Interestingly, the certificate also says on the back that it’s not valid for official purposes because it doesn’t have identifiers on it, such as a photograph. But Toronto asked me to bring it along with current photo id –they told me to bring driver’s licence or passport for that, so I used my passport. It may have been that Canada was just starting to use the wallet card/photo id card in ’79, so was issuing both formats — as I think some early ’70s relinquishers said they hadn’t gotten a card at all.
@Tiger, this is one point where I think Vancouver makes sense being adamant about documentation. Never thought you’d hear me say that, eh. As it’s important to establish exactly when did the person stop being a USC, I could see that they wouldn’t just want to take my word for it, so I wasn’t surprised by the request. I think it’s weird that Canada never put the date on the wallet cards, at least they never did as far as I know.
@pacifica777, that makes sense. Just out of curiosity, can you say what the wording is on your certificate that indicates that the date is the date you acquired citizenship?
And, FWIW, the technical term for date of citizenship acquisition w.r.t. the new citizenship certificates seems to be “effective date of citizenship” – see http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/publications/proof.asp and click on the image sample (back) for a bigger version.
Congratulations Medea and Authentic! I love a day like this (CLN ready to pick up, CLN on the way with receipt in hand) but not nearly as much as both of you are loving it I’m sure. “Zip-a-dee-doo-dah, zip-a-dee-ay. My, oh my, what a wonderful day.” 🙂
@tdott
It’s just at the centre of the very bottom of the certificate. The first paragraph basically states that you are a Canadian citizen. The second and final paragraph is,
“The person named herein, having taken the oath of citizenship or allegiance where applicable became a Canadian citizen on the date indicated below. See reverse side for use of this document.”
Then it says “Date ___________________” and the date is just typed on the line.
On the reverse side, it tells you that this certificate is not official for things such as getting a passport bla bla bla and then in bold caps FOR VERIFICATION OF CITIZENSHIP, USE THE CERTIFICATE CONTAINING THE PHOTOGRAPH.”
Thanks for the technical term.
@tdott,
The wording on my very official looking certificate is as follows:
Xxxxxxis a Canadian Citizen under the provisions of the Canadian Citizenship Act and as such, is entitled to all the rights and privileges and is subject to all the responsibilities, obligations and duties of a Canadian citizen.
On the back it has my name,date of birth, sex,height,eye colour and is clearly stamped with the date of my citizenship ceremony.
@pacifica,
You are so right, I would never have thought we might think Vancouver is doing something right!!!
@Tiger and tdott,
My first paragraph is quite similar:
“[Name, Address] is a Canadian citizen.”
“Under the provisions of the Citizenship Act, a Canadian citizen is entitled to all the rights and privileges and is subject to all the duties and responsibilities of being a Canadian citizen.”
Back’s obviously completely different from yours, so I think I must have been in a transitional period.
Well mine says on the front that I am a Canadian citizen and on the back it says it is evidence that I am a Canadian citizen. It also gives a verbal description of me (as in eye colour, etc) and is stamped with a date and bears a serial number. I think mine is older than yours. Probably before they had invented cameras lol.
Thanks to everyone for the congratulations.
It sure feels different to be free again.I am now working on a summary to go on the Consulate report Directory very soon. I would like to suggest to anybody seeking information on this site to just read, read, read and ask questions. There’s so much valuable info here. That’s what saved me.
I have a question regarding the need for a CLN for a person who became a Canadian citizen in 1980, having been born in the US in the late 40s. My understanding is that the immigration and nationality act was not changed until 1986 following which you were required to provide proof of intent and voluntary nature of the relinquishment and are/were required to notify the Staye department. However prior to 1986 you did not have to notify the US state department. So should those that took out Canadian citizenship prior to 1986 have no requirement to notify? Or was the legislation backdated to require those who relinquished before 1986 to notify? If so is there a record of this? Is there a policy to say it is required?
@Joe,
I have a little bit of information on that.
The Act itself wasn’t changed in 1986. Due to court decisions, the administrative presumption was changed, from the US presuming that the person intended to lose their citizenship, to the US presuming that the person intended to keep their citizenship, so the burden of proof shifted.
From what I can tell, in the 70s/early 80s it turns out that citizenship loss really wasn’t automatic upon naturalisation (legally it was only presumed) – I only learned since doing research when this mess started that one could still retain US citizenship in those days. But in the 70’s/80’s everyone seemed to have believed it was automatic then – in fact, Canada Immigration warned me, as they did others, that I would automatically lose the US citizenship.
The burden of proof in 1980 would have been on the US. Now it’s on the person. Either way didn’t pose a problem because I was way over meeting the burden, under either the pre- or post-1986 presumption, and that’s probably the same for any bona fide relinquisher applying for a CLN now.
Regardless of when the person naturalised with intent, in today’s US climate the CLN seems to be necessary if a US-born needs incontrovertible proof of the termination of citizenship, unless they can stay off the radar (thinking in terms of things like possible travel difficulties into the US, possible FATCA) and are comfortable with that.
Hello Brockers,
I’m a long-term lurker and am here today to ask for advice. I apologize if this is not the right place for such a post.
I renounced in January 2012 at an embassy in Asia and now, nearly 15 months later, have yet to receive my CLN. After being informed last June that my application was in the “final stages,” I’ve been told repeatedly that there is nothing to do but wait for Washington to approve the paperwork.
I’m wondering 1) if consulates have a way of checking the status of an application and 2) whether I should be worried, given that most people seem to be getting their CLNs in a matter of months now. If the consulate keeps stonewalling, should I hire a lawyer (is there anything a lawyer could do)? Resubmit my paperwork somewhere else? I paid the $450 fee but still have my passport, which I was told would be canceled when I came to pick up the CLN. I was also told by the consulate to use the US passport when traveling to the US, which I have done once. Could that have jeopardized the application?
And then there is the question of what to do about my 2012 taxes. The consulate insists that I have to keep filing standard US tax returns until I receive my CLN.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
@AsianExpat, it sounds like you’ve been scammed. When you renounced, you lost your US citizenship and thus you should no longer be in possession of a valid passport. If I were you, I’d begin by calling the State Department to see if they got the documentation and see what the delay is. If they don’t have anything, then how about going to a different embassy in a different country and using your renunciation receipt to renounce again, backdated on the date when you already renounced, without paying the fee twice?
@AsianExpat “I’m wondering 1) if consulates have a way of checking the status of an application and 2) whether I should be worried, given that most people seem to be getting their CLNs in a matter of months now. If the consulate keeps stonewalling, should I hire a lawyer (is there anything a lawyer could do)?”
1) Yes, they can. Definitely get it touch with them and ask them to contact the State Department and ask about your CLN.
2) No, I don’t believe a lawyer could do anything in this case except make you poorer.
@Asian Expat
(1) Yes, they can check with Washington.
(2)(a) Sounds like it fell through the cracks. 15 months makes no sense at all to me.
(2)(b) A few suggestions you could consider — you could do any of them right away, it’s not the type of thing where you have to go up the ladder in steps, especially if the local level is stonewalling and/or confused:
(i) speak with the American Citizen Services Unit Chief at your consulate, or if you’ve done that already, try the head consul at your consulate;
(ii) the US Consul General for your country.
(iii) contact DC directly yourself, There are two offices in DC that handle CLN applications from Asia. What part of Asia are you in, South&Central or East? Let us know if you’d like contact info.
That’s odd they didn’t take your passport. They are supposed to take it when you renounce, keep it at the consulate, and return it cancelled along with the CLN (or the person can ask the consulate to destroy it at that time) (7FAM1220, p.11) There is apparently an exception and slightly different procedure, also on p. 11, if you tell them you need the passport because you need foreign visas that are in it, but even then the consulate is supposed to mark it as cancelled before they hand it to you.
In all other cases,
Using the US passport should not jeopardise your application because you were told to do it, not because you were trying to re-establish citizenship. DoS really isn’t trying to trap people in citizenship against their will, and in fact two Brockers reported on this, different circumstance, but where the person used their US passport because they were told they had to, and it did not create problems for their CLN.
However, the consulate did give you the wrong advice because once you’ve applied for your CLN, that fact is in a database that DHS can access. From what you’ve written, sounds like they’re not really up to par about renunciation. But it’s their error, not yours.
Thank you swisspinoy, notamused, and pacifica777 for your replies.
I renounced in Jakarta and have been in frequent contact with ACS at the consulate there, but each time I ask about the application they say they haven’t heard anything and will be in touch when they do. I recently asked them if they could please check with Washington. They asked for my date and place of birth and said they’d get back to me. A week later (as of Friday) they say they haven’t heard anything.
It sounds as though I need to get in touch with Washington directly. pacifica777, could you pass along the contact info for the office that would be handling applications from Indonesia?
I’m extremely grateful for your help.
@ Asian Expat
Your welcome.
Jakarta’s really dropped the ball. I e-mailed my consulate after 6 months, and they e-mailed me back about an hour later, saying they’d checked with Washington and it was awaiting approval (it arrived the next month, btw). So, I don’t get why Jakarta didn’t hear anything after a week.
The CLNs are approved by a division of the State Dept called CA/OCS/ACS (Consular Affairs/Overseas Citizen Services/American Citizen Services).
The CA/OCS/ACS Division Chief for East Asia and Pacific (EAP) is Brett Pomainville 202-736-7443. Perhaps he or someone at that number might be of assistance or give you the e-mail address/phone of the correct person to contact. The street address, btw, is 4th Floor SA-29, 2201 C Street NW, Washingon, DC 20520. Sorry, I don’t have an e-mail address.
@web administrator
I have included this comment in two places.
Just realized that the excellent renunciation guide which succinctly covers nearly all aspects of the process is now back and filed under Consulate Report Directory, online resources, but it is hard to find. The previous link to the renunciation, guide that was filed at the bottom of each comment page (black area) no longer works. Can this old link be re- activated?
pacifica777, thanks so much for that information. I’ll try to find out what’s going on and report back when I learn something in case someone else lands in a similar mess.