Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@Uncle Tell:
If you want another third party, here’s my path: I’ve decided to go with quiet disclosure, and have filled out the 5 years of IRS paperwork on my own since my financial situation is pretty simple (1040, 2555-EZ, 8891, 1040-B, 6251 …. why Americans allow themselves to be so buried in forms is beyond me), and 6 years of FBARs (FinCen 114, to be picky). Just enough to be able to clear the 8854 hurdle of 5 years of IRS compliance.
My foolish error was to wait until I had my paperwork put together before calling the consulate for an appointment. Nothing until 2015. Sigh. Another year of IRS donkey-work to go through.
@Accidental American
There have been no reports of anyone going thru Streamlined being hit with penalties.
Just be aware that Streamlined only requires 3 years of tax returns, but in order to satisfy the 8854 compliance/certification you need 5 *full* years of tax returns filed (and the year that you renounce does NOT count as a full year). So, if you are in a hurry (who isn’t) you may want to consider filing more than 3 years of returns in Streamlined (this is allowed).
@OddlyNamed:
Thanks for the input! Have you already sent all the forms to the IRS? If so, did you get any response from them? I’m thinking of helping my sibling out with the streamlined procedure and including the 2 extra years. The problem is that I’m not sure if the IRS will swallow it ’cause it’s a combination of following the new procedure and quiet disclosure. I would assume though that if in all the 5 years there is no tax due that this should not be a problem. Logical to me but perhaps not to the IRS.
Somehow I think there is a premeditated reason why the streamlined procedure asks for only 3 years of 1040’s and not 5 ! 🙄
@All
What do the rest of you think?
Has anbody done this already and received a positive feedback from the IRS?
I filed 4 years at once in 2014. Filing 2014 will be my 5th. No response from the IRS on my filings. Makes me wonder if anybody even reviews the filings.
Considering the expense you go through to “voluntarily” file, the IRS could at least send a thank you card with a smiling picture of Uncle Sam and maybe even Obama….
I’ve now requested an appointment with the consulate for early 2015. So far, no response to my email. For $2,350 USD, I would have thought they would be happy to hear from me.
@James…they only contact you if/when there is a problem. No news = good news. 3 years and the SOL runs out and you’re clear. The chance of getting audited is <1%.
@Uncle Tell
See: http://www.mnptax.ca/insights/blog/2012/9/2/details-on-new-irs-streamlined-relief-for-americans-in-canada
@Uncle Tell, it’s because the Streamlined program is aimed at those Americans who aren’t compliant through ignorance, etc, but want to stay as Americans and continue their US tax filings in future. So the program asks for 3 years, expecting them to then continue filing forward after that. The fact that you can use it when you renounce/relinquish is just an added benefit. After all the point of all the different OVDP’s is to get those not filing back into the system so the revenue keeps coming in.
@DM,@Tonya…,@lioness.
Has anyone heard from Vancouver about an appointment?
@somerfugl Have not received a call or email…..NOTHING so far!
@somerfugl – Have received nothing.
Well, I think I give up. I have been waiting twelve months for my CLN. In that time I have contacted the consulate by email twice to ask for an update. They always say “case is pending” I think they are able to look in a computer where it says that but, don’t have any follow up as to where I am in the process or how much longer I will be waiting. Soon it will be over a year. I’m just going to move on and stop waiting for my relinquishment to be approved.
When I went in I was told by the consulate officer and by D.C. both that mine was a relinquishment cut and dried so I have no idea why on earth mine in particular is taking FAR longer than everyone else who went in last Sept. I don’t think the local consulate knows either and all you get when you write them is a quick update from what they can see in their computer. I’ve thought about calling D.C. but, have no idea if that will just make things worse or take even longer, I have no idea if my relinquishment forms are behind someone’s desk or at the bottom of a pile or if my forms were lost when their data base crashed and so went to the bottom or are completely lost forever. They cannot tell any of those things from punching in a case number to see a computerized “case pending” message.
I have fretted over this, wanting to move on with my life so badly and thinking I wanted this all behind me when my CLN arrived. Well, it’s not coming. If it does, good. If not well, I have zero control over this situation. I am really aggravated that every one else who went when I did and some who went well after me already have their CLN in hand especially since there is nothing unusual about my case. Don’t feel like writing them again only to get back a one sentence reply “case still pending” yet again.
Is anyone else waiting longer than a year who relinquished in Toronto in 2013? So frustrating!! It’s not worth it to have to check email, look for a phone message every day that simply isn’t coming. Whatever has gone wrong they do not have to tell me and no info is forthcoming. Dangling in the wind here after two years of decision making and going through a process I loathed to have to do anyway. Time to take a more “whatever will be will be” attitude. Life is too short for this. Maybe they want me to wait till after Sept. 15, deny my relinquishment and make me renounce and pay to do so? After over a year of waiting and confirmation that I had a solid relinquishment that would be a low blow but, it could happen.
I’m putting this here so some of you coming up to this situation can know what you might run into. Oh, and I don’t have 2500 dollars so there’s that too. Cripes.
Atticus. Would you mind briefly reminding us about your story? Perhaps it would encourage others to not bother and save all the anxiety.
@ Atticus
I so very much empathize with you. I gave up chasing the status of and waiting for the issuance of my I-407 approval after one year. My old, expired, null & void greencard has gone into the USCIS abyss and I simply can’t do anything about it. I can however in all honesty say I do not hold a greencard. However, you have that US place of birth to deal with so someday you will need that CLN and believe me if I knew what to advise you as to how to shake it loose from them I would do so. Maybe at this point you will have to make that call to DC with your fingers crossed and something medicinal to keep your temper and BP in check. Man I hope they aren’t being so petty as to be maneuvering you into a $2350 dollar renunciation. Didn’t Petros wait almost a year for his CLN? Who can advocate for you? An MP here in Canada? A congressman in the USA? The Toronto Consulate? This is exasperating!!! (I wanted to use stronger language.)
@ Atticus,
I am really sorry, and mad, to hear this.
You asked, “Is anyone else waiting longer than a year who relinquished in Toronto in 2013?”
Below is some information from our records. From people reporting to Brock, everyone up to August 2013 at Toronto seems to have got their CLN, except a couple of people we’ve lost contact with. There’s a list going back to 2011 in the appendix of the Consulate Report Directory.
No one reporting here who used Toronto in Fall 2013 got their CLN yet. It is really skuzzy.
I know that two people who waited a long time (much longer than usual for their division) made a call to their division office in DC (these was East Asia/Pacific and Europe) and that got their CLNs on track really fast. I don’t know if contacting DC would help you or not, because it looks like a systemic thing here, but it might — a year is ridiculously long to be waiting, even in our division.
As mentioned above, people who reported using Toronto Consulate prior to Sept 2014 have reported receiving their CLNs, except for a couple we lost contact with.
People who reported using Toronto Consulate Sept 2014 to the present (month of consulate meeting followed by month of receipt of CLN):
Waiting for CLNs
Kingston. Sep 2013. Relinquish 1970s.Mrs. Kingston. Sep 2013. Relinquish 1970s.
AtticusInCanada. Sep 2013. Relinquish 2010s.
Michael. October 2013. Relinquish 2000s.
Ian. October 2013. Renounce.
Global Citizen. December 2013. Relinquish 1970s.
Global Citizen’s family member. April 2014. Relinquish 1980s.
Kathy. June 2014. Relinquish 1990s.
Swannee. July 2014. Relinquish 2010s.
Mark. August 2014. Relinquish decade unknown.
Received CLNs
Kingston. Sep 2013. Nov 2013. Relinquish 1970s.
Mrs. Kingston. Sep 2013. Nov 2013. Relinquish 1970s.
MyKitty. Jan 2014. May 2014. Relinquish 1980s.
Badger. Jan 2014. June 2014. Relinquish 2000s.
LM. April 2014. August 2014. Renounce.
@Atticus, did you have anything signed and witnessed when you took your oath? Something you could take to a lawyer and have notarized? That should suffice for Canadian financial/bank purposes.
Even if you didn’t, you could still draft something to the effect that you took Canadian citizenship with intent to relinquish and have it notarized. It’s something.
You will get your CLN. It’s a dick move on the State Departments part to make you wait but that’s what they do.
Just draft your own. Make it official for your everyday purposes and try not to worry.
Atticus,
All I can say is it is so despicable that is happening to you. It is beyond the pale the punitive actions by the Department of State and, for now, some of the US Consulates. You are right and strong to decide to just move on.
From the numbers Pacifica was kind enough to put up there it looks like something is going on with those fall of 2013 relinquishments and renouncements. How could someone who went in Jan. 2014 get their CLN in May when all the people who went in months before that are still waiting?? Were those fall relinquishment forms lost in the data base crash?
Duke of Devin, my situation is very typical.Took Canadian citizenship in 2012 with intent to relinquish. Went in as soon as I could in 2013 to submit documents to relinquish. When I was standing there the consulate officer called D.C. to confirm mine was indeed a relinquishment. She accepted my documents with confirmation from D.C. saying at the window to me with a big smile “It’s a relinquishing” I took from that confirmation that I had a pretty easy and good reason to assume no issues with my documents. In fact the consulate officer said to me that I had filled everything in perfectly. So? I still think there is nothing out of order with my paperwork.
At any rate there’s really little I can do. I can say from this that when you contact the consulate they do not usually call D.C. to find out where your case is. They punch in a case number into a computer where they can ONLY see “case pending” They have zero information about where your paperwork is in the long line. That’s all they can do.
Something about that cut off after August, it seems there are delays from Sept. going forward. Long delays. I realize this is not supposed to be a pleasant process and indeed it has not been. However, I travelled to Toronto on the train at my expense to do this, pounded the pavement all day to get there and back to my return train. Was in pain all day because my arthritis hates me walking on hard surfaces all day. The cost incurred, the painful decision making and all the rest. The consulate officers have been helpful and pleasant and I appreciate that. However, I incurred a lot costs and they are getting paid to do a job. If they are that backed up in Toronto then maybe they need some more helpers? A solution needs to be found because making someone wait that long for such an important document is really too much. Maybe a streamlined process whereby you pay a small fee to be fast tracked. I don’t know but, something has to give.
Yes, I think some people in a slow down over two years ago waited this long and longer but, it’s just odd in some parts of the world people are getting CLN’s within ten weeks and here in Canada we sit waiting over a year? If our division is in that much trouble then borrow some help somewhere or at LEAST let us track our own case online instead of bothering consulate for updates and let us see where we are in the line. When I got Canadian citizenship one could log in and see where your citizenship process was in the line. Something like that would be VERY helpful and take a load of consulate officers trying to answer emails. Just a thought.
Em and Calgary you are both right. I just think I’m going to stop looking every day to see if I got an email saying my CLN has arrived etc. I’m nont even going to think about this anymore. I didn’t get any notarized document but, have a letter of interim travel and that’s it. Nothing I can do about the situation whatsoever but, it sure is a pita to wait this long to put something so ridiculously painful behind you and move on. ALL of our lives have been upside down since 2010. I just wonder when they will think the pound of flesh is enough? Ever?
@ Atticus
You are absolutely correct. Yours is a slamdunk relinquishment. The CLN delay is inexcusable.
@ Pacifica
If you want to add my husband’s dates to your list they are: Canadian citizenship Sep 2013 (notified Calgary consulate day after citizenship ceremony). Calgary consulate appointment Feb 2014. CLN received Jun 2014 (dated for Sep 2013).
That relinquishment date (government employment) for me is in the 1990s, if you want to update anything.
@AtticusinCanada, the situation they have you in is appalling. It shows clearly that the power lies with US government officials, not with individual (ex)citizens. An individual needs a CLN (1) in order to document a request to visit the US on a non-US passport that shows a US place of birth, and (2) for presentation to financial institutions as evidence for exemption from FATCA reporting requirements. Yet the US government controls the issuance of CLNs and can deny or delay them.
Furthermore — see today’s comments in another posting:
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/department-of-state-forms-and-procedure-manuals-for-renouncingrelinquishing/comment-page-1/#comment-2975717
— it seems likely now that the US State Department is planning to tighten the requirements for obtaining back-dated CLNs, as if a person’s past intention to relinquish US citizenship is better judged by US government officials than by the person in question.
“Land of the Free” ??
Thanks, EmBee.
He’s on the Calgary chart and I was just listing Toronto here. But thanks anyway – I wouldn’t want to leave Mr. EmBee or anyone out. And I did notice I have him as “Mr. Em” so, I’ll fix that.
Thanks, Kathy.
I’ll add that to the list and to the chart.
(I edited out the exact date from your comment, but can restore your original text if you prefer.)
@ Pacifica
I didn’t realize he was in there. Thanks. What’s in a name? He answers to Hon and even Hey You sometimes. 😉
@AtticusinCanada
It is time for you to contact Washington yourself. Get the contact info from Pacifica (although it has also been posted earlier) and ask them what is the cause of the delay, since your case is extremely straight forward.
@AnonAnon, “(2) for presentation to financial institutions as evidence for exemption from FATCA reporting requirements.”
A CLN is NOT required under IGAs to show a relinquishment. You can provide a reasonable explanation but that will likely mean a robust file.