Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
I have given generously to ADCS as I would rather give to this organization than to give to Lawyers and Accountants. I have learned more here than the lawyers and accountants that I have hired!!
@ProudCanadian
I interpret that question as asking about your US citizenship prior to becoming a Canadian, so the answer is ‘since birth’ or whatever the case may be.
I don’t see any harm in the letter you received. Offhand, I don’t think you need to mention it either.
The ‘case-by-case determination’ is what your consulate appointmentment is all about. You will present to them that you knew and intended voluntarily at the time (1974) that you would lose your USC. The letter exchange in 1987 did not change that.
the bucket challenge to all US xpats: “Dear USG, Go Jump in a Lake”
Unconventional candidate renounces US citizenship
@Mark Twain, silly man. It means absolutely nothing as far as his US citizenship goes. Not done in the prescribed manner, i.e before a consular official at an embassy/consulate, so totally a waste of time.
A U.S. citizen has an expatriation event on the date that one of the following events occurs:
•The individual renounces his or her U.S. nationality before a diplomatic or consular officer of the United States pursuant to paragraph (5) of section 349(a) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1481(a)(5)), provided the renunciation is subsequently approved by the issuance to the individual of a certificate of loss of nationality by the United States Department of State,
http://hodgen.com/chapter-2-are-you-an-expatriate/
If you’re going to go around quoting a law as justification for your actions you should at least do as the law says. Just as well he never became President (rolls eyes).
I wonder, can he be done for defacing US property, i.e. his passport?
@ Medea
It’s not the passport that’s U.S. property, it’s the holder of the passport. 😉
@EmBee, ha, yes that too! Still I can’t see him punching holes in his flesh as part of his renunciation declaration.
@Medea Fleecestealer
It is of course true that this method has no bearing on his US citizenship as far as US law stands, and therefore you are correct in saying that his quoting a US law is meaningless.
However, what may be more important is whether or not his other country of citizenship and residence (in this case Ireland) recognises this as a legitimate way of renouncing a foreign (in this case US) citizenship. US citizenship law has no jurisdiction outside the US. There are still some countries that consider a person to have automatically abanddoned all other citizenships at the time of naturalisation (as both Canada and the US itself once did), and others that do not recognise dual citizenship so by claiming that country’s citizenship at time of birth, any other country’s (such as the US) claims on that person are invalid within that country’s borders.
With the rise in the cost of US renunciation, I would not be surprised to see more people unilaterally renouncing their US citizenship as long as they never plan to visit the US again.
And as for requiring a CLN, in many countries that may be unnecessary. I cannot ever imagine showing it to a bank or other FI in Japan.
@TokyoRose, that’s true, but unless he does intend to stay of the US completely I don’t think the US/IRS will care what another country believes.
Some countries may not want the CLN yet, but if FATCA’s not stopped I think it will become a requirement for anyone who used to be an American in future. Japan may not be requiring them yet, but I don’t know what penalties, if any, their financial institutions may suffer if they can’t prove they’ve ferried out all their American clients.
In Switzerland it’s an absolute necessity if you want to keep your account and have renounced/relinquished. No CLN, no account.
@Medea Fleecestealer
I hear what you’re saying about the Swiss banks, but unless the US starts issuing CLNs in Japanese, it will be of little use to the banks here. I will use it exactly once, to submit, together with my own translation, for entry of my loss of US citizenship on my family register. After that, as far as Japan goes, it is just a piece of paper. For the banks, any of my Japanese ID is just fine, even before I get the CLN. In Japan, a Japanese citizen is by definition not a US citizen, dual status is merely a technical anomaly.
I’m sure eventually all the banks here will eventually have the Yes/No checkboxes for US citizenship for people opening new accounts (although this past month it was only at 1 of 5 banks where we opened new accounts), and I’m sure they’ll do an electronic search for any existing account that has for some unimaginable reason has a US mailing address or phone number, but that will probably be the end of it.
And for the US getting nasty about poor diligence by Japanese banks, I’m not too sure that is going to happen. I think the US forced countries like Japan into an IGA just to show that pretty much the whole world was cooperating. It’s not as if Japan would be a very good place for any rich US homelanders to stash their money. A 1-year time deposit earns 0.03% interest, with 20% tax deducted at source. The Japanese banks will say “we’re doing our best” and the US will say “thank you for cooperating”.
I certainly realise that your situation in Switzerland is completely different.
@ Toyko Rose
The banks have signed an IGA agreeing to be responsible for translating all relevant documents.
They have now been given a two year ‘grace period to comply.
At the risk of a 30% withhold on all funds passing through the US, I think you will see more and more of them complying…(unless of course Fatca falls apart). Compliance is slowly happening all over Europe, not just in Switzerland.
@TokyoRose, I don’t expect any other country to have it as bad as we have had here. That’s the price the Swiss banks are paying for ending up in the US courts for helping US citizens hide their money. I see it more as something people living in other countries need to be aware of and be prepared to take action for just in case their banks start heading down the same route.
I am in the process of filing 5 years of taxes and renouncing my citizenship. I have waited it out for over 3 years but feel safer going through the process with the streamline program in place. I am wondering if you can get away with renouncing without filing Fbar’s. I would prefer not to obviously but I don’t want anything to go wrong at this point in my process. Also I am struggling to figure out how to book an appointment in T.O. They sure don’t make it easy to contact them by phone or e-mail. They e-mailed me and told to write them back in Oct. to try to get an appointment because they are so busy. I am guessing I will get a similar e-mail when I write them back in Oct. Any help would be great. Also if I don’t get a C.L.N. sent to me before the next tax season, would I need to file another year of taxes?
@Accidental American:
I’ve had to book an appointment with the Toronto consulate. As they say on their website, send an e-mail to Torontopassport@state.gov asking for a renunciation/relinquishment appointment. Then they respond with a quick automated e-mail (an hour or so later) with emergency instructions, which you can ignore (it’s boilerplate for reporting American citizens in trouble, etc.)
Then, in my case always within the next business day, I’ve received a reply. The first reply will be another boilerplate response for renunciations, whose subject line is “Information on the process of Renunciation/Relinquishment”.
In it they will ask you to fill out an attached questionnaire and DS4079 and send those in a response e-mail. They will then grant you one of the precious and all-too-few renunciation time slots.
At least, that’s how it has worked for me. You will likely get an appointment sometime in the first half of 2015 (last time I heard, they were booking into late January, and that was a few weeks ago).
Regarding the FBARs, you will need to file the famous 8854 IRS form, which requires you to certify that you are in compliance with the IRS filings for the past 5 years. There is some debate as to whether that includes the FBARs or not, but for my purposes, I’m filing 6 years of past FBARs (covers the statute of limitations) for the purpose of renouncing.
@Accidental American, that Toronto consulate non-booking information sounds like it needs to go to the media. Like maybe Patrick at Global News.
Accidental. There is a view that fbars are only trotted out after some one is audited and found wanting so that penalties can be piled up. There are no reports of accidentals being audited. Peter Dunn outlined his case as to why he did not file fbars. They come under a different statute than tax returns and so on.
@AccidentalAmerican, you can’t get out of filing FBAR’s if you want to use the Streamlined program.
“Eligibility for the Streamlined Foreign Offshore Procedures
In addition to having to meet the general eligibility criteria described above, individual U.S. taxpayers, or estates of individual U.S. taxpayers, seeking to use the Streamlined Foreign Offshore Procedures described in this section must: (1) meet the applicable non-residency requirement described below (for joint return filers, both spouses must meet the applicable non-residency requirement described below) and (2) have failed to report the income from a foreign financial asset and pay tax as required by U.S. law, and may have failed to file an FBAR (FinCEN Form 114, previously Form TD F 90-22.1) with respect to a foreign financial account, and such failures resulted from non-willful conduct. Non-willful conduct is conduct that is due to negligence, inadvertence, or mistake or conduct that is the result of a good faith misunderstanding of the requirements of the law.”
and
“3.Complete and sign a statement on the Certification by U.S. Person Residing Outside of the U.S. certifying (1) that you are eligible for the Streamlined Foreign Offshore Procedures; (2) that all required FBARs have now been filed (see instruction 8 below); and (3) that the failure to file tax returns, report all income, pay all tax, and submit all required information returns, including FBARs, resulted from non-willful conduct. You must submit the original signed statement and you must attach copies of the statement to each tax return and information return being submitted through these procedures. You should not attach copies of the statement to FBARs. Failure to submit this statement, or submission of an incomplete or otherwise deficient statement, will result in returns being processed in the normal course without the benefit of the favorable terms of these procedures.”
http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/U-S-Taxpayers-Residing-Outside-the-United-States
The concept of being able to renounce US citizenship to ones own country of residence is a solution to the IGA issues. If your government accepts that you are not a reportable US citizen, then FATCA reporting is not necessary.
After the IGA is signed, FATCA is a domestic issue. If your local govt makes a law stating that a local renunciation is valid, then they need not be reported according to local law. IGA implements US law, but ought to leave room for local definition of who rids themselves of US citizenship.
Thank you Medea Fleecestealer for your comments. I had forgetten that I need to comply with Fbar to be in the Streamline program. So my next question is, has anyone on line here entered the Streamline program and found it to be fair and safe. I feel like I am stepping into a fire. I have never had a SSN and still need to cross the boarder to get one. I basically have been under the radar and am about to say”Here I Am IRS”. I was born in the U.S. with Canadian parents, lived there 5 months and was also a Canadian citizen at birth so I know that makes renouncing straight forward for me.
@AccidentalAmerican, well I used Streamlined to back file my FBAR’s, but as I don’t have any income that was all I needed to do for the program so I’m not really a good comparison for you. So far I haven’t heard anything further from either the IRS or my US tax preparer here about any problems.
I think, if you’re tax situation is simple, then you won’t have too much to worry about. The IRS is getting inundated with all these people catching up as it were and most don’t even owe any tax.
@Medea Fleecestealer, I have a sibling who is starting to panic about their tax and renouncing situation. I remember that at one time you told other new posters here at IBS to take a look at how you caried out the procedure of filing back taxes and renouncing. Could you please re-state where one can find that info, possibly a link maybe? I’ve tried to help them out but at certain times one needs input from a “third-party” 🙂
@Uncle Tell, I wouldn’t know where to find the info here, but I can tell you what I did.
I decided I wanted to renounce towards the end of 2012, but only got around to making an appointment to renounce at the end of January 2013; that appointment was for early March. I completed the forms and questionnaire the embassy here in Bern sent me and sent them back as requested before the appointment date. I went to the embassy on the day and took the Oath of Renunciation so that part was complete. My report on the visit is in the Consulate Directory under the Swiss section if you want to have something a bit more detailed.
I then contacted a US tax preparer here and had a meeting with him during which he suggested the Streamlined program would be the best as I only had FBAR’s to back file as I have no income. So I went back through my bank statements to find the info for those and sent it to him, then in mid-June he sent me the Streamlined Questionnaire and FBAR forms for signing and posting off to the States. That covered years 2006-2012. Then this year he sent me a copy of the 8854 form to fill in to send back to him and I also provided the FBAR info for the partial 2013 year. He sent the 8854 form back to me for signing and posting in mid-May which I did. I decided to pay a bit extra and get him to file the FBAR for me as it’s now electronic and I didn’t want the hassle of dealing with what sounded like a shaky system at the time. And that was the tax filing done.
I suggest your sibling starts here:
http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/U.S.-Citizens-and-Resident-Aliens-Abroad
to understand his obligations as far as the US goes. There’s more on the Streamlined program at these links:
http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/Streamlined-Filing-Compliance-Procedures
http://www.irs.gov/uac/About-Form-1023EZ
Let me know if you have any more questions and I’ll answer as best I can.
@Medea, Thanks for the info! Just curious though, when you say that you did not have income it take that you mean that you were under the 1040 filing threshold, right?
@Uncle Tell, no I mean I have no income. I’m a stay at home housewife so don’t earn anything. I just spend the OH’s while he does all the earning.
@Medea, 😛
@Medea, SORRY! wrong smiley I really meant 😀
@ ALL, Others gift their NRA spouse over 100K USD per year and thus avoid the FBAR threshold. 🙄