Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
LM and RMA, here is a link to the selective service rules. They make for interesting reading.
https://www.sss.gov/fswho.htm
For example, did you know that a woman who has gender reassignment surgery to be male is not required to register but a man who does the same to become a woman is required?
There is a link that deals with immigrants and duals but basically the US expects all men between 18 and 26 with any USPism at all to register. Even the disabled.
I would imagine a person’s on-going obligations would stem from unfulfilled ones. Say you didn’t file taxes when you were a USC but have renounced. You are still on the hook with them for the missing years. Same with Selective Service. You were supposed to register but didn’t or you did register and now you are stuck on their list.
Just a guess. You’d have to check this with the proper authorities.
@RMA & WhatAMI
YIKES. Not being male or anywhere near 26, I haven’t focused in on this glitch, but those of us in this category, or having sons in this category (or younger) need to keep this in mind given the recent pledge by the US to wipe out ISIS (and other wars around the world). If one has renounced, how can they still come after you to be in their military? I mean, doesn’t NO mean NO!??? I guess not….. So much for one’s right to sever one’s citizenship (and all rights and freedoms).
More about the Selective Service registry / US “Draft”: http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/wars/a/draft2.htm
@Calgary411 — They haven’t prosecuted an SSS refuser since 1986.
@YogaGirl
Still and again I say YIKES!!!!! 🙁
RMA, you are right. They haven’t gone after anyone in quite a while but they let the FBAR rule sit idle for decades before suddenly deciding to enforce it, so I wouldn’t rule anything out.
However, it mentioned on the SSS page that the US has agreements with various countries that exempt duals and such. Probably not something to get too worked up about.
I know. Nor did they have a renunciation fee a few years back. Just something in the back of my mind, but right — nothing to be concerned about at the moment.
@RMA – An ex-colleague of mine, born and raised in the Ottawa Valley with a USC father, was later denied a student loan in California b/c he hadn’t registered for the draft. Ironically, he says he wouldn’t have minded – it was just that nobody had ever told him he was supposed to.
I was wondering when can someone successfully claim relinquishment of citizenship? As in how far back can that go? I became a Canadian in 2002 with the assumption that by doing so I was relinquishing my US standing. If I want to relinquish, would I still have to file income tax for the past five years in order to receive my CLN? Note: I was not born in the US, received my citizenship through my father, moved to Canada when I was eight and have lived here ever since. I have never filled income tax in the US as I don’t even have a Social Security number. Would the US even accept my relinquishment? I’m finding all this information very helpful, but completely overwhelming with so much information to consider. Any feedback would be much appreciated.
@OMG…there are people who have claimed relinquishment back into the 1970’s. As long has you haven’t done anything to assert US citizenship since you relinquished in 2002, like using/renewing a passport, voting, paying taxes, etc you can submit a DS-4079 http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/97025.pdf and they should issue a CLN based on that date The rules back then say you expatriated for tax purposes the day you did the relinquishing act.
See http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/06/19/if-your-expatriation-date-is-before-2004-the-rules-are-different/
@OMG! I’m so screwed! Actually, you’re not. Yes, many people have claimed relinquishments going back to the 70s and 80s, maybe even the 60s so it shouldn’t be a problem. Read more here re the tax side for those who relinquished before 2004.
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/relinquishing-acts-performed-prior-to-2004/
When you make your appointment at the embassy/consulate they’ll send you this form to fill in:
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/97025.pdf
When you go to the embassy/consulate they’ll go through the form with you and if everything’s okay it’ll be sent on to Washington for final approval. Eventually, no saying when, you’ll get your CLN (Certificate of Loss of Nationality of the US) and that will be it. Keep the document safe and take a photocopy of it to keep with your passport so if/when you visit the States and are queried why you don’t have a US passport you can show them the copy of the CLN.
It’s really quite simple and because you can relinquish you’re going to save yourself $2,350. Isn’t that good news!
@OMG…. I also became Canadian in 2002 and am trying to get an appointment to relinquish in Vancouver in December. I have sent in the forms last week including the one mentioned by Medea.. I don’t know how long it takes just to get an appointment, or if they even have any appointments available in December. Good luck in your quest to relinquish! I am hoping they don’t add on an exorbitant fee for relinquishing like they have for renouncing.
Another free seminar in Calgary from Moody’s. This is the 3rd or 4th there:
http://www.moodysgartner.com/calgary-seminar-considering-renouncing-your-us-citizenship-september-25-2014/
The US Consulate here in Vancouver is starting to play games with people. Last fall I requested an appointment to renounce and received a friendly telephone call with an appointment that was only 2 weeks away. Unfortunately (major Homer Simpson “D’oh!” moment) I had to cancel because I had misplaced some important documents. One year later (and I will regret waiting this one year for the rest of my life) their tune has changed and now they want you to fill out forms BEFORE you send them the request for an appointment! I send in the requested forms and started a ping pong match of emails where the clerk kept saying I did not fill out the forms correct (and they were pretty nasty about it as well). Four tries later and I submitted them again and have not heard anything since regarding an appointment time–complete radio silence.
I feel like this is part of their ploy now to try and find something wrong with someone’s application, so they can deny them the right to renounce. You think they would be happy to take my $2350 USD….no?
Last fall in Calgary, you didn’t have to submit your forms to get an appointment. You were given an appointment date and you were asked to send them in before your appointment. In the spring, they changed and now you have to send in the forms before you get a date.
In October when I asked for an appointment, I was given one 2 weeks later, which didn’t work for me. My next choice at the time was 3 months later. So, maybe you were lucky the first time and were given a slot from a cancellation. That was my theory when it happened to me.
@Tonya
I have scanned copies of my 4079 4080 4081 4083
I would be happy to share them with you
Please email me at us dot expatcanada at gmail dot com
I renounced Jan 20, 2012
Does anyone have a Vancouver phone number or email address for renunciation/relinquishment of US citizenship? I emailed VancouverCLN@state.gov for info about this and received a form email advising “how to fill out the forms” and to email completed forms to VancouverACS@state.gov requesting an appointment. I filled out the forms and emailed to VancouverACS@state.gov requesting an appointment, but then received another form email thanking me for my email and advising that it was an autoreply (advising me again to email VancouverCLN@state.gov)
@lioness: I emailed to the same address (VancouverACS@state.gov) as you and received an auto reply and then another email from the same address requesting that I fill out one of the forms (the questionnaire) completely (about which I posted on Isaac Brock last week). When I sent in the completed form (to the same address) I got an email that said only ‘thank you’.
I was also confused when I sent the forms the first time and got the auto reply, but then when I got the second response asking me to complete the questionnaire, I realized that I had sent to the right address. I am assuming that they send the auto reply to any email they receive.
It has been a week now and I haven’t heard anything about an appointment. ( I wonder how long it will take them to just book an appointment. Does anyone have any recent experience with booking in Vancouver?)
In the auto reply there is the statement: “If you do not find the information you are seeking, please resend your inquiry with “Request for Specific Information” in the subject line of the email. We will respond within 48 hours.”
I may try to contact them that way if I don’t hear back in another week or two.
I also sent an email with the following in the subject line: “Request for Specific Information” and got another form email in return thanking me and repeating the same info as the first email. i also called Ottawa and sent an email to them requesting information on how to contact Vancouver. A close friend of mine said: “This is the service *US Persons* in Canada will pay a fee of $2,350 for renunciation???” pls keep me posted. thanks!
Hi,
I moved to Canada at age 13 and became a Canadian Citizen in 1991. I am now 55.
If I divide my assets with my wife (who is a “pure” Canadian), I don’t believe I have a “capital gain” in excess of $600k.
I’ve enterted the streamline filing and now have 4 tax filings done. 2014 will be my last.
I’m now wondering if I should have just relinquished and with less than $600k in capital gains, I guessing that I would have avoided paying income tax??
Also, when you relinquish, will the consulate asign the date that I took out Canadian Citizenship or the date I show up at the consulate?
Is the fee to relinquish the same as to renounce? I’ve sent an email to the consulate to ask this question but have been met with silence.
Thank you
@James, you’ve landed in a bit of a mess possibly. Yes, you could likely claim a relinquishment which would be backdated to the date of you gaining Canadian citizenship. However, you’ve since entered the Streamlined program which suggests you still consider yourself to be a dual national as far as the embassy/government is concerned. They may take the view that you didn’t intend to relinquish your US citizenship when you became a Canadian and would, therefore, only accept a renunciation from you. Which is a shame because you wouldn’t have needed to do anything as far as the tax side goes as you relinquished before 3rd June 2004.
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/06/19/if-your-expatriation-date-is-before-2004-the-rules-are-different/
There is no fee when you relinquish, but a newly raised fee of $2,350 for renouncing which goes into effect on the 12th September 2014.
@ James
Since you have entered the system with your tax filings (perhaps you have a US passport too?) then you cannot go back and claim your intent was to give up your US citizenship when you became a Canadian. Looks to me like you will have to do a $2350 renunciation as opposed to a relinquishment which, for the moment, does not have a fee attached. Also note that if your bank does a FATCA report on you it will become obvious you are transferring assets prior to your exit and I really don’t know what the consequences of that might be since this is early times in the FATCA regime. You might find this thread informative …
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2011/12/12/relinquish-dont-renounce-if-you-can/
@ All
Thinking more about James and I’m wondering if you think they will eventually close the “free” relinquishment with back-dated CLN portal by some means. They just have to say that if you didn’t immediately file documents with DOS and IRS when you became a Canadian then too bad, so sad, you go straight to formaggedon and pay the very hefty exit fee and exit taxes. I wonder where and when an “underground railway” will arise to take American tax slaves to safety and freedom? Will there even be a place to go? This is what should inspire all of us to contribute to ADCS and FATCA Legal Action because if we don’t push back then we will be pushed over.
@James
Given your talk of $600K capital gains, it sounds like you are expecting to be a covered expat. Is that correct? Note that the $663K (I believe that’s the exact number) capital gains exclusion only applies in the case of covered expats; non-covered (uncovered?) expats don’t have to worry about that (you want to be a non-covered expat if at all possible).
Also, exactly what years of returns did you do in Streamlined? It’s not obvious whether you are considering 2014 to be a full year or a split year. It does make a difference with respect to covered vs non-covered status.
Basically, you should provide more info so we can understand your situation.
As others have stated, you can likely now not claim a past relinquishment due to naturalization because you filed tax returns – the returns suggest your intention of remaining a USC.
@James
Also note that RRSPs and pensions can not make use of the $663K capital gains exclusion. In these cases you are taxed on the full amount (not gains) and the money is treated as income (not capital gains). I believe for a defined benefit pension, you are taxed on the calculated present value of it. This is another reason not to be a covered expat – you can take a massive hit on RRSPs and pensions.