Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
Pingback: State Department to hike renunciation fees to US$2,350; says “no public benefit” in respecting human right to change nationality - Tax samurai
WARNING – to everyone thinking of renouncing. The fee for this will be increased from the 6th of September 2014 to $2,350! Whether this will also be applied to those relinquishing I don’t know as it’s not stated in the Department’s document.
http://diplopundit.net/2014/08/27/re…m-450-to-2350/
http://www.ofr.gov/OFRUpload/OFRData/2014-20516_PI.pdf
The current fee is $450 to renounce your citizenship. This is an increase of 422%. If you think this is outrageous and an infringement of your right to renounce, get writing.
DATES: This interim final rule becomes effective September 6, 2014. Written comments must be received on or before October 21, 2014.
ADDRESSES: Interested parties may submit comments to the Department by any of the following methods:
Visit the Regulations.gov website at: http://www.regulations.gov and search the RIN 1400-AD47or docket number DOS-2014-0016.
• Mail (paper, disk, or CD-ROM): U.S. Department of State, Office of the Comptroller, Bureau of Consular Affairs (CA/C), SA-17 8th Floor, Washington, DC 20522-1707.
• E-mail:fees@state.gov. You must include the RIN (1400-AD47) in the subject line of your message.
• All comments should include the commenter’s name, the organization the commenter represents, if applicable, and the commenter’s address. If the Department is unable to read your comment for any reason, and cannot contact you for clarification, the Department may not be able to consider your comment. After the conclusion of the comment period, the Department will publish a Final Rule (in which it will address relevant comments) as expeditiously as possible.
@Pukeonz, I fear that Tdott’s concerns are valid. But even if the IRS weren’t that bothered about a minnow renunciant, your bank might be.
I understand that some banks in Switzerland are not only insisting on a CLN, but also copies of the past 5 years filed tax returns along with 8854, plus proof of filed FBARs with threats of account freezing/closure. Of course, financial institutions in Switzerland are probably going to be more stringent, but wouldn’t be surprised if this becomes more widespread. The banks are frightened of being hit with penalties from the US for having undisclosed US persons and could well force the said customer to pay towards the fines imposed on the bank by the US if discovered by FATCA.
I doubt if the IRS will have the resources to go directly after multitudes of minnows after FATCA reporting comes in during 2015 but the banks will often take up the dirty work for them to cover their own asses.
As for being ‘covered’, I remember reading on the Serbinski accountant forum that they were of the opinion that a renunciant is still deemed a US tax citizen by the IRS (if no longer by State) until 8854 has been filed. It could be that you might have to file for an extra year then exit via 8854 next year, though this question pertained to someone who was still waiting for a CLN after more than a year and causing them to miss the filing deadline.
@pukekonz, which consulate did you use in NZ for your relinquishment? We are just about to obtain our NZ citizenship by grant and are looking into the relinquishment process. Were the consulate staff you dealt with in NZ aware of the differences between relinquishment and renunciation? How was your experience of working through the process?
@ Kiwi As
I hope pukekonz spots your questions. Pure Kiwi posted his renunciation experience in Auckland on the Consulate Report thread — http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/consulate2/
My husband was able to smoothly relinquish (no renunciation fee) by getting a statement of intent to relinquish his U.S. citizenship witnessed at his Canadian citizenship ceremony. (The citizenship officer was delighted to sign it.) Will you be doing that in NZ too?
@EmBee. What kind of form did your husband use at his citizenship ceremony to state his intent to relinquish at the ceremony? In addition to the form 4079, I was planning on submitting a sworn affidavit as suggested in this comment: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/09/13/renunciation-and-relinquishment-what-are-the-differences-is-there-a-difference/comment-page-1/#comment-54847
@ Kiwi As
It was a homemade statement, not an official form, that he took to his ceremony. It was readily accepted by the Calgary U.S. Consulate, along with a copy of the oath he took. He e-mailed this statement to the consulate right after the ceremony. This is the format …
I [name], on this date [date], in the city of [name], affirm my allegiance to Canada and in so doing it is my intention to relinquish my citizenship in the United States of America to avoid any conflict of allegiances.
Signed [name]
Witnessed [Canadian Citizenship Officer]
Question: Can someone direct me to a concise document outlining the legal procedure for RELINQUISHING US citizenship (not renouncing but relinquishing)?
This thread, and others in Brock, contain so many entries that I find it impossible to zero in on entries to answer the above question.
Thank you.
@dt804a
The legal procedure is to do one of the acts for relinquishing US nationality and if so desired as listed on http://travel.state.gov/content/travel/english/legal-considerations/us-citizenship-laws-policies/citizenship-and-dual-nationality.html
and then if you wish to document it for a CLN so the government will acknowledge it, fill out a DS-4079 form and provide any additional evidence and sign it in front of consular officer.
DS-4079: http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/97025.pdf
The info is reasonably well organized on the Maple Sandbox website. Scroll down to the Relinquishment and Renunciation section. You have some reading to do.
To RMA and Duke – Thank you so much for the info, which is exactly what I was seeking.
Post relinquishing “in front of consular officer”, as RMA wrote, where do I find info on my obligations to the IRS and when do I cut the umbilical cord connecting me to that venerable organization?
We can’t give you all the answers. You will be told to contact the IRS. Generally speaking, that means filing a complex and difficult form 8854. You are meant to also certify that you have been US tax compliant for 5 years. Good luck.
Thank you, Duke.
@dt804a…See http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/Expatriation-Tax
@dt804a, you have until the 15th June of the year following your relinquishment/renunciation to fill in the 8854 form. So if you could do it now you have until 15th June 2015 to get all the necessary paperwork done. Bear this in mind when making an appointment as some embassies/consulates may have many months’ waiting time before you get a date. Toronto iirc is backed up for 6 months so you wouldn’t get an appointment until around March next year which would only leave 4 months for paperwork. You can make a start on the paperwork now before you relinquish/renounce, but do keep the June date in mind when planning your exit strategy.
Also use the IRS’s wesbite to help you find more out about your obligations on the tax side. Start here:
http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/U.S.-Citizens-and-Resident-Aliens-Abroad
and then search for things like 8854 and FBAR, etc, for more specific info on those documents on their website.
Somerfugl;
On Feb. 27, 2014, I sent the following email to the US Consulate in Calgary a Calgary-ACS@state.gov>
2. My husband and I intend to document our prior relinquishment of our U.S. citizenship. We will present our Canadian certificates of citizenship dated (xx), 1974. Because of this “prior expatriating act”, we are not currently U.S. citizens renouncing our U.S. citizenship.
3. Question 10 in the Loss of Nationality Questionnaire asks if I will be providing a written statement regarding my reasons for renouncing my U.S. citizenship,; question 11 asks if I will swear or affirm when I take the Oath of Renunciation. My husband and I intend to document our prior relinquishment, not to renounce current U.S. citizenship. Should we ignore questions 10 and 11? Will we each be required to pay the $450 fee? Is there a fee for processing a retroactive Certificate of Loss of Nationality based upon our prior relinquishment of our U.S. citizenship by becoming Canadian citizens in 1974?
On Feb. 28, 2014 I received this reply:
2. Understood.
3. You can ignore the questions, and you don’t have to pay the $450 fee.
I hope this helps you avoid possible complications by swearing to “renounce” a citizenship you’re trying to prove you don’t actually have.
Somerfugl;
On Feb. 27, 2014, I sent the following email to the US Consulate in Calgary a Calgary-ACS@state.gov>
“2. My husband and I intend to document our prior relinquishment of our U.S. citizenship. We will present our Canadian certificates of citizenship dated (xx), 1974. Because of this “prior expatriating act”, we are not currently U.S. citizens renouncing our U.S. citizenship.
3. Question 10 in the Loss of Nationality Questionnaire asks if I will be providing a written statement regarding my reasons for renouncing my U.S. citizenship,; question 11 asks if I will swear or affirm when I take the Oath of Renunciation. My husband and I intend to document our prior relinquishment, not to renounce current U.S. citizenship. Should we ignore questions 10 and 11? Will we each be required to pay the $450 fee? Is there a fee for processing a retroactive Certificate of Loss of Nationality based upon our prior relinquishment of our U.S. citizenship by becoming Canadian citizens in 1974?
On Feb. 28, 2014 I received this reply:
2. Understood.
3. You can ignore the questions, and you don’t have to pay the $450 fee.”
I hope this helps you avoid possible complications by swearing to “renounce” a citizenship you’re trying to prove you don’t actually have.
RMA and Medea – thanks for the additional info in response to my Q’s.
Queenston – I found the details you gave in your posting very useful (although it wasn’t addressed to me specifically).
Hi Guys, I am in a slight quandary with my back filings. I have most of my income info but it’s a mess as NZ tax years are different, then there is historical exchange rates to deal with etc. I am trying to file 6yrs worth of back filings and get my 8854 in. I have come nowhere close to earning more than 50,000 US per year the last 6 years. Usually 30-50k max. Therefore it seems pointless to me to submit numbers of pinpoint accuracy. I simply do NOT have time for this! I have been able to get a ballpark figure of my income for each year and am just going with this. What do you think? If for some reason I did get audited they might find that ok in 2009 I claimed I earned 46,000 US on my return, but after going through all my books with an ‘auditor’ it’s actually 42,000 US that I earned. So what? I could see if I earned $130,000 US and claimed 80k US, fine. But if I am under 50k a year what is the point? I have to get this crap submitted and over with. I guess if my accuracy is not pinpoint (give or take 5k but always under 50k US) then I think I’ll just submit it all anyway and hope for the best.
@ pukekonz
Did you see the Kiwis As comment above, asking about your consulate experience? I don’t know what your focus on 50K of income is all about. The 8854 asks for 5 years of U.S. income tax liability (i.e. tax owed to the US after foreign exclusions and credits are taken) NOT income. At least that was how my husband interpreted it. So I guess this has something to do with the backfiling of your 1040s. Having different tax years has got to be headache to unscramble.
@embee yes 8854 is no prob, just getting these 1040’s sorted out. I basically have no choice but to give a good guess on the yearly income. I’m pulling 70hrs a week just to keep my family surviving and have ZERO time and yet I am having to partake in this lunacy US tax crap. Why can’t the 1040 simply say “did you earn more than 99k if yes see section x below”. I’ll look at the Kiwi As post now.
@Kiwi As
I was no fan of my experience with the consulate in Auckland. They certainly tried to force me into renunciating but I held my ground and they had to do me a relinquishment. It was a very nerve racking process for me. Finally 8 months later I got my CLN and now dealing with the stress of backfiling. Being a US expat sucks sucks sucks.
@Kiwi As
Auckland is the only US Consulate that handles expatriation in New Zealand. I renounced earlier this year and the process was straightforward and the staff courteous and business like. There is a report in the Brock directory. It took them 6 months to send my CLN. I know of another person who is still waiting after 8 months, so things appear to be slowing up a bit.
Hope this helps.
I RECEIVED MY CLN THIS MORNING!!!!! At first I was in shock because I still wasn’t expecting it for several more weeks, then once I realized what I was holding, I cried tears of joy so hard that I nearly threw up. Now I’m off to get it translated so that I can FINALLY be a citizen of a country that I enjoy being in so much! I’m still around and won’t just disappear, though 😉
@ UtterlyFrustrated
Utterly fantastic news. Congratulations!