Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
Participants will need to provide their e-mail address (real or fake) and an alias. The only written rule is that participants must use a same alias each time they post (and not “anonymous” or derivatives thereof).
Bear in mind that any responses that you get from participants is peer-to-peer help, and it is not intended as a replacement for professional advice. Also, the Isaac Brock Society provides this disclaimer: neither the Society nor any of its members are professionals. We offer our advice here only in friendship and we recommend that our readers seek professional advice if they need it.
If you wish to receive an e-mail notification of comments, check the box to that effect when making your first comment.
NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
Just so those affected know, I’ve been to Calgary for my relinquishment appt this week. They tried to persuade me to renounce instead of relinquish saying the $450 fee was going up soon by A LOT!! I’m not sure what the new charge will be or when.
@ Cheryl The fee is already too high, sad that the US continues to gouge those that don’t want this citizenship.
Confirmation of the backlog at the Toronto Consulate.
http://globalnews.ca/news/1519628/want-to-shed-u-s-citizenship-get-in-line/
heartsick: The story is posted here and is gathering Brock comments:
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2014/08/21/u-s-consulate-appointments-toronto-is-booked-up-no-problem-you-can-go-somewhere-else-adding-to-your-expense-for-the-whole-u-s-expatriation-experience/
Cheryl, that would be an excellent comment for you to make at Global News, Patrick Cain’s article of today: http://globalnews.ca/news/1519628/want-to-shed-u-s-citizenship-get-in-line/. Thanks — I think one other person has heard that as well.
How nice of them to offer you the sale price for a renunciation over a “free” claim to relinquishment. I hope that yours goes meets their requirements and goes through smoothly.
@calgary411
Thanks. I hope so too.
When the US DOS set the renunciation price at $450 in 2010, it stated that it covered less than 25% of the cost. Will the new price be increased to $1,800 ($450/.25) or perhaps $2,250 ($450/.20)?
Also, see the reasoning for the subsidized $450 below:
“Schedule of Fees for Consular Services, Department of State and Overseas Embassies and Consulates
A Rule by the State Department on 06/28/2010
Documentation for Renunciation of Citizenship
The CoSS demonstrated that documenting a U.S. citizen’s renunciation of citizenship is extremely costly, requiring American consular officers overseas to spend substantial amounts of time to accept, process, and adjudicate cases. A new fee of $450 will be established to help defray a portion of the total cost to the U.S. Government of documenting the renunciation of citizenship. While the Department decided to set the fee at $450, this fee represents less than 25 percent of the cost to the U.S. Government. The Department has determined that it must recoup at least a portion of its costs of providing this very costly service but set the fee lower than the cost of service in order to lessen the impact on those who need this service and not discourage the utilization of the service, a development the Department feels would be detrimental to national interests. See 31 U.S.C. 9701(b)(2).”
Is there still no fee for relinquishment? I just got info from Vancouver. I am trying to book a December or early January appointment when we travel there then. ( I live in London, ON). Before I can even book an appointment I have to email them a questionnaire and form DS4079. Form DS4079 is a pain in the neck to fill out. I have a question about one of the questions. Is this the proper thread to ask about this or is there another one?
I just had my relinquishment appt at Calgary and there was no fee.
It’s ridiculous because processing a relinquishment is more work for them than a renounce, which is a slam dunk. If they wanted they could simplify the process so that it was completed at the consulate, or even better, by mail, which would warrant no more than a token administrative fee. My guess is that there were not that many relinquishments when this fee was initiated and it was simply an oversight. It won’t be missed when they revamp their fee structure that’s for sure.
Hi,
Born in the USA 1973 to Canadian Parents. Moved to Canada at age of 1. Never moved back or earned money in the US. Never had a US passport or SS number. I have confirmed that the Canadian government considered me a Canadian Citizen from the day I was born since both my parents are born Canadians.
Would I qualify as relinquished?
Thanks in advance
@HonestCanadian,
No, you need a relinquishing act, such as working for a level of Canadian government, serving in the military as an officer (NCO or CO), joining in military action against the US, or treason. See INA 349.
In 1978 and 1986, while changing laws to protect US citizens from losing their citizenship against their will, they left only the above options for a born dual citizen like you (and me) to perform relinquishing acts.
@ Somerfugl
Yes, this is a good place to ask your question on the 4079. I just filled out one last month.
Pingback: The Isaac Brock Society | Comparison of fees and procedures for renouncing citizenship in various countries
Honest Canuck. Unfortunately not. You are a classic example of the accidental American. Your next steps depend on your circumstances. You could start with ‘what you should consider before contacting a lawyer’. (Google it). You have work to do.
One question I have for people is this: if an application for a past-date relinquishment is turned down by Washington, is there any avenue to appeal? What if you feel strongly that the recommendation to deny your claim by the vice consul was misinformed and just plain wrong?
I had a terrible experience last month at the Calgary consulate. The vice consul was aggressive and combative, raising his voice unnecessarily and becoming very unpleasant. It was clear to me that he’d spent a lot of time before my appointment reviewing my paperwork and trying to find any small detail that he could use to disallow my claim. It seems like these guys are on a total power trip with their own agenda and with absolutely no checks or balances. Who oversees how these bullies treat people? When a police officer oversteps his authority, there’s a process you can follow to complain. Where do we turn in this situation? Just wondering…..
well, I have been too busy and broke to get my back filings done yet. I relinquished in November. I think I have left things too late and will now be a “covered expatriate” but my net worth is maybe 90k US at most so am I correct in not having to worry much if it’s under 2 million? I’ll try to get everything filed in the next 2 weeks and just hope for the best.
@Molly
Hi. I had my relinquishment appt last week in Calgary. The consul & clerk indicated that they didn’t feel that the State Department would rule in my flavour. I asked if there is any appeal process and was told no but I could “reply” to the decision??? I’m not sure if that’s true or not. I believe that my case is clear and hope that I will receive a CNL predated to 1978. Time will tell. They said it would take 6 months.
molly says:
When a police officer oversteps his authority, there’s a process you can follow to complain.
You have a ways to go in understanding how “the police” is another potentially far worse face of the same state apparatus you have just run up against. Notoriously, cops review their own abusive acts, and routinely exonerate their perps. The rare cop who “squeals” is doomed to face unendurable peer pressure. Do some research. Talk to your civil liberties association.
That consular official was nothing but a mouth. If you ever stumble into a situation where “the police” decide to get physical with you, you’ll wish you had seen the dirt sooner.
I applied for an appointment to renounce in Vancouver in 2015 and received an automated reply indicating the forms I needed to complete and e-mail back when I requested my appointment. I did that last week and got another automated reply that I would hear from them in 48 hours. That didn’t happen so I sent another e-mail – still no response. Is there some protracted holiday in the US? Is Vancouver overwhelmed with requests?
I think I will try Calgary if I haven’t heard by the end of this week.
@ Molly and Cheryl,
There’s some information about appeals in Administrative Review and Appeal of Loss-of-Nationality Findings. I don’t know anything about it as I don’t know anyone who has appealed.
I hope everything works out for you two in the first instance. Regarding negative recommendations, it does appear that DC doesn’t just rubber-stamp neg recs. So far 4 people who reported to Brock they got negative recommendations have received a decision. In 3 cases, DC overrode the neg rec. In these cases, the vice/consuls erroneously believed that if a person were born dual or naturalised as a minor, they could not relinquish under s. (4)(government employment), so it was pretty cut-and-dried. The one which did not result in a relinquishment-based CLN was under s. (1)(naturalisation) and the problem involved passport renewal and use.
@Pacifica777
Thanks. I’m hoping I don’t need it.
@DM
If Vancouver is your 1st choice and you’ve already emailed them the docs they asked for, I would give them a a little more time. I’m surprised that their auto email said they would reply within 48 hours; it might be an old form. The auto replies I’ve received always say:
“we will make every effort to respond within 3-5 working days”
And although they have responded twice within that range, note the “every effort”, meaning no promises.
For them, an appointment for 2015 is a very no-rush thing.
@pukekonz
The $ 2 million is one of the criteria in determining if someone is to be classified as a “covered expatriate”. If 8854 is not filed on time, you’re automatically classified as a “covered expatriate” and the $2 million criteria no longer has any significance. But: I think you can apply for an extention until Oct. 15 or perhaps even Dec. 15. Check the IRS site for the form.
notamused thanks. My tax person seems to think i have missed the boat.
“First, there is no extension. A tax return is due by June 15. If an extension is required, it must be filed by June 15. The extension is until Oct 15. However, this extension was valid only for 2013 return.
In your case you must file 5 years of prior returns (2008-2012) plus a tax return for YR 2013 and form 8854. Moreover, since the due date has already passed, you need to act swiftly. You are considered a covered expatriate. A covered expatriate will be deemed to have sold all his/her worldwide assets at their fair market value on the day before expatriation. Any capital gains on the deemed sale are taxed as income in the year of expatriation.”
Sounds pretty scary, not that I own much of anything but do co-own a house with my foreign wife. I think my assets if we sold and i took my share would be 80-90k US or so and my yearly earning would be like 30k US so that is still under 150k which I think is some sort of cutoff? Hell, I don’t know.. this is all over my head. I guess I could end up with a lot of fines I can’t pay but I can’t see NZ extraditing me over it and if I can never set foot in the US again then that’s almost a bonus in my book.
@pukekonz
OK. Assuming you’ve missed the deadline for the extension and are indeed considered a “covered expatriate”, if I remember correcty there is a deductible of approx. $ 640K, i.e. the tax only applies to capital gains > $640K. Please check the 8854 form instructions for details or wait for others here to respond.