Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@ IsabellaG
I second Pacicifica’s suggestion to read the Consulate Report Directory. I’ve read it in its entirety and it make for some fascinating reading; if anything to show how much both conditions in different locations and each individual’s perceptions can vary.
@TokyoRose,
Sure, I’ll hold off for now. I’ll look forward to reading your report next month and I can put that in then.
For my case anyway, Isabella, I had to wait two weeks just to talk to a human being about it. First I tried the consulate that was responsible for my area. They replied to E-mails only once every 3 days, and each time asking me for more information when they should have told me all the information they needed in the beginning. Each time, the E-mail was signed “Consulate”; no name, no phone number. You had no idea who you were even talking to! I tried calling them to arrange an appointment with them and got some snarky foreign sounding guy who said that wasn’t possible and hung up on me. When they finally E-mailed me back that they weren’t taking appointments until October, I tried another consulate and got lucky. I had to start the whole information process over again, but I finally got an appointment for 5 weeks later after I had already spent 2 weeks chasing people down.
@ UtterlyFrustrated
When you are on safe ground (i.e. CLN in hand) I hope you’ll share the consulate’s location with us. Your experience would be helpful as a warning to other poor lambs in your region. Thankfully, most consulates are more professional than yours. My husband’s experience in Calgary was perfunctory but not adversarial at all. I’ve got my fingers crossed for you. I don’t want you to miss out on your dream job because of this bureaucratic balkiness. Good luck!
@EmBee I sure will. Dream job is supposed to start in October, but I was going to live off savings until then because I just can’t do this other job anymore. I hate it THAT badly. I haven’t told my dream job people I won’t be able to do it now in the hopes that my CLN arrives in time. I’ll keep you guys updated.
@Pacifica777
One of the first things I did was consult the Consulate Report Directory to look for my country. It wasn’t there. Shoot, not a country within my REGION of the world was there. (No surprise – people around here think US citizenship is a Gift from God, so I can’t think anyone would give it up, almost no matter the cost.)
I do have to read all the experiences in detail, though.. I haven’t done that yet, just skimmed it a bit. So thanks for the reminder.
@ Tokyo Rose
Osaka sounds wonderful. I know the embassy here has a HUGE armed presence. Just to get to go in to the CITIZEN’S entrance (not the one for those seeking visas, which is even worse), you have to go through about three armed checkpoints, with metal detectors and bag checks. You can’t take a cellphone (you can’t even leave it at a checkpoint and collect it on your way out – you cannot take it in AT ALL). Once you get through all that the people are pleasant enough, but to get there you are made to feel like a criminal, even if you are just renewing a passport.
@UtterlyFrustrated
Your username is well chosen. What an entirely distressing experience. I too would LOVE to know (when it is all over and you have the CLN) where on earth you are. That place sounds insane. I don’t have a choice of embassy unless I fly to another country, and I am not really willing to do that.
@IsabellaG, it’s the same here. I couldn’t take anything into the embassy with me when I renounced apart from my documents. They even threw a wobbly over the pedometer I had in my pocket (forgot to take it out before I entered) and the tissues too. They finally agreed, after about 5 minutes of umming and ahing that they’d hold the pedometer for me until I left the embassy and the tissues could go in with me. Crazy.
I think the Osaka experience is just the same everywhere. There were armed guards standing around where I was, but not patrolling and all these locked doors I had to go through just to get to citizen’s services. And then, when I FINALLY got there, I had to immediately go back through those doors pay, so I ended up having to talk to the checkpoint guy 3 times to ask him to let me through the door. He also already knew who I was and had my passport information up on a screen.
They told me that I couldn’t bring a cellphone into the building, but I assumed that I could leave it at the front. I have absolutely no idea why I thought this at the time, but since it didn’t specifically say where I had to leave it and I was traveling 3 1/2 hours by train just to get to said consulate, I had to have my cellphone. I got there and the consulate was nearly a mile away from the bus stop, so I walked down there only to hear, “You can’t leave your cellphone here. There’s a flower shop down by the bus stop that will hold it for you. You can trust them.” So then I had to walk BACK to the bus stop (why didn’t they just say this in their information before?!), pay some woman the equivalent of $2.50 to hold it (and she kept the money, it wasn’t just an exchange type thing), and then walk all that way back to the consulate, making me nearly thirty minutes late for my appointment. Then they didn’t want me to have my keys on me because they ‘were metal’ and I informed them again that I was not here by car, they didN’t tell me that before, and I was not walking back down to that bus stop. They just took them from me and put them in some little slot to hold it. What am I gonna do, stab an armed guard in a bullet proof vest with my keys? That would hurt me way more than it would him.
And every single person was behind bullet proof glass and what seemed to be like 5 feet of wall except for the guards milling around.
Hi there, fellow expats!
So after flirting with the idea of relinquishing for a while and doing some research online, I filled out all the forms and made an apointment at the nearest US consulate (Recife, Brazil), thinking it´d be a piece of cake…
Based on what I´ve read in a few treads out here, and in order to save myself the $450 fee, I decided to relinquish rather than renounce, using the fact that I got naturalized in Brazil last year and made an oath of alegiance to my new country during the naturalization ceremony, declaring that I renounce my prior nationality….
At first, the folks at the Consulate were petty dumbfounded and confused, saying it was the first time ever someone requested this at the consulate. But then, after doing some research and interviewing me, they rejected my request, claiming that it was not clear to them that my intention, upon naturalizing Braziling, was to relinquish US citizenship, even though I have written that it was my intention in every single form I filed out!!! I spent over an hour arguing with the consul, but he wouldn´t budge, so, in order not to waste any more time with these bloodsuckers, I ended up paying the $450 and filing the renunciation form.
Today the consulate calls me, saying that the only thing that´s missing to proceed my request is my US naturalization certificate (I wasn´t born american, but naturalized while studying in California, young and innocent and unaware of what I was getting myself into!) Is this just something they invented to make my life harder? From what I´ve read, there doesn´t seem to exist any such requirement in the law, I have already left them my passport…
Anyway, I´d really appreciate some help, as my certificate is packed along with a bunch of other documents and personal belongings in the basement of a friend´s parents´ house in the US, and I really don´t feel comfortable asking them to go through my boxes. Could my request be rejected without my certificate? Is it worth the trouble?
Thanks a bunch!
@Riccado,
I went through a renunciation at a Consulate in Europe. They took copies of my passport and I was told all was fine,and to expect my CLN in about 4 weeks.
6 weeks later I was contacted and told I needed to supply my naturalization certificate, (they had already taken the number of it). I HAD to supply it, my CLN arrived 6 weeks later. You need to let them have it.
Good luck.
@@Riccardo…the naturalization certificate is necessary since they use that to certify on DS-4080 and DS-4083 how you obtained US citizenship.
If you still want to try relinquishing and speaking to a higher up, you could always e-mail Consular Affairs Legal at Ask-OCS-L@state.gov and explain the situation or to Division Chief (Western Hemisphere Affairs) Clay Adler 10th Floor, SA-17 202-485-6289–that the consular officer didn’t seem competent.; perhaps they could give you some useful information
Tel. Directory
https://www.google.co.il/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CBoQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.state.gov%2Fdocuments%2Forganization%2F112065.pdf&ei=kq30U6fKDciEOJnvgLgC&usg=AFQjCNHRvOskQrLPmptzsEwzLNbI8KLyzA&sig2=i_FXgcgtnCJvGeUcNxpf9w&bvm=bv.73231344,d.ZWU
@Riccado PS
You could have your friend find it and Fax it to the Consulate, that is what I did.
@Riccardo
If you don’t want your friend’s parents going through your stuff, you should be able to get a copy of your naturalization certificate from the US gov. Have you look at this site?
http://www.archives.gov/research/naturalization/
You can contact USCIS to get a replacement certificate of your own naturalization certificate. See http://www.uscis.gov/n-565
There is a hefty fee of USD 345.
Thanks a bunch for all the replies! I must say I´m impressed with how fast this forum works!
From that the person at the US consul said, they were already able to locate my naturalization record on their system, what they need to proceed my request is the *original* certificate.
The problem for me is not sending the certificate out here, it is finding someone trustworthy and patient enough to go through the dozens of dusty boxes which are in the spider-infested basement!
I guess my other option would be to ask for a replacement certificate from the USCIS, which would cost another $345 and a few months´ wait time… I´ll have to see if it´s worth it.
Anyway, what I wanted to know was if asking for the naturalization certificate was a valid requirement, and from the replies I got, I guess it is not uncommon.
This brings forward another question: Could delays in obtaining my naturalization certificate result in my renunciation request being turned down? Or will it just delay the issuing of my relinquishing certificate, but once it is issued it will be starting on the date on which I have made my original renunciation request? (Hopefully this makes sense to you guys, I wasn´t able to find an easier way to formulate the question…)
Thanks a bunch!
@Riccardo, it should be the date you went to the embassy to relinquish/renounce. They can’t turn it down, you stood in front of the Consul and swore the Oath of Renunciation. The CLN will be delayed I suspect until they get the document as they’ll want to send all the paperwork off to Washington at the same time. So the sooner you can provide that the better. Where are you on the US tax side of things?
Riccardo, I like the idea of contacting Washington best. The consul doesn’t know the law.
There is another option. A Canadian comic Ron James did a skit where the US makes a preposterous claim on Canada’s water.
In the skit, Canada’s response is “do you think it will hurt?”
U.S. “Will what hurt?”
Canada. “When you go bleep yourself”
@KalC
So you, or more precisely Ron James, thinks Canada’s water situation would be quite different from FATCA.
If it went like FATCA:
The US would say to Canada: Give us all your water.
Canadian politicians would say: Sure, here you go.
End of story.
Of course, the rest of the world also just rolled over to be butt-fxxked as well.
Americans have a saying: “How do you get a Canadian off his land?”
– “Ask him to leave”
Tokyo Rose. Touché.
I´m fine taxwise, just filed taxes for the past 5 years, even though I was exempt!
But what about right now, during this “wait time”, what am I? A US citizen or not? Should I close down my US bank accounts that are only for US residents? Should I inform the US banks which allow NRAs to hold accounts that I am no longer a citizen or should I wait till I receive my CLN? Can I already open bank accounts in other countries and certify that I am a non-US person? It´s kind of an ambiguous situation… The folks at the consulate couldn´t answer any of these questions.
I would wait until you get your CLN. Until it’s been “approved” by Washington you’re still technically an American as far as the US is concerned. And as far as foreign banks are concerned they’ll want proof of your status which, again, only the CLN will give you. I had the same thing with my bank here in Switzerland. When they wanted me to sign a W-9 due to FATCA coming in I told them I’d renounced just a few days before I received their paperwork. But they couldn’t change my status on their records until they’d seen a copy of my CLN.
@Ricaccardo, If you plan on formally renouncing, under 349(a)(5), you are definitely still a US citizen. If you plan on reliinquishing on 349(a)(1)(2)(3), or(4) ,and can convince them to give you a CLN, de jure you lost your citizenship the day you did the act with the intent to lose citizenship, but de facto, banks and government agencies won’t recognize it until a CLN is issued..
To clarify — as DS-4080 says — “Note: A renunciation of United States nationality/citizenship is effective only upon approval by the U.S. Department of State, but when approved, the loss of nationality/citizenship occurs as of the date of the above Oath/Affirmation was taken.
@ Riccardo
A word of warning, if you have a US credit card and wish to keep it, you will need to have an American address, maybe you can keep the one that you are already using or ask a friend or relative to use their US address.