Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@UtterlyFrustrated
I renounced in August 2012. At the time I was told it would take 3-4 weeks for the CLN to arrive. It actually took 4 months.
@notamused So you are living as a free German now, then, I suppose? Congratulations! Do you live in Frankfurt or was that the closest embassy to you?
@Calgary411
LOL.. I know what you mean about the spam… I do get it for this thread (I signed up for e-mail notifications when I posted). The first time I saw an e-mail of a post about plastic surgery I had to do a double-take! I still do like the e-mail reminders, though – it’s easier for me than checking the site all the time.
@IsabellaG
Re copies of forms. I know that about three years ago Toronto consulate gave you a copy of the signed forms, but they stopped in early 2012. As far as I know, no consulate gives you a copy at this time. Basically all you can do is keep a copy of the unsigned form for yourself.
DoS doesn’t really care about tax matters, not their mandate or area of expertise. IRS will not get a 4079. The only document IRS receives is a copy of each CLN that is issued 7 FAM 1243.
Agree it’s generally best in this, as in many other situations, to say as little as possible. Good to have some short answers in mind, just in case you’re asked something. Things vary a bit place to place, so it’s definitely important be well prepared and to know the law, but generally the consul reads your documents before s/he meets you and doesn’t ask any questions and the meeting itself goes quite quickly.
@UtterlyFrustrated
Yes, apart from my tainted US place of birth I’m able to get on with my life in Frankfurt as a normal German without any US shackles.
@pacifica777
Thanks for this. So I’ll just make sure I have copies of everything myself. It won’t be official, but it will be something.
The link is very helpful. I’ll take a copy of that document with me, in case they want to overstep and ask for my 8854 at the embassy. If the IRS doesn’t get a 4079, then I feel the less said on that the better.
I have read (even on this thread) that some people have gotten a letter from the embassy basically saying that “X has completed renunciation documents on {date}, but is still considered a US citizen until her documents are approved by the State Dept”. Do I have a RIGHT to a letter like this, or am I at the mercy of the embassy? What’s the best way to get a letter like this? (It may be useful if the CLN takes a while.)
heidi,
It could be just that — not so long ago all U.S. Consulates required two appointments, a good period of time apart — go sit in the corner and think about this.
@heidi, calgary411
Well, if that’s the case, I guess I rather be glowered at for 30 mins than have to go back a second time. (The choices we have…sheesh.)
@IsabellaG
As to the letter explaining that you are in the process of getting a CLN, ask for one since they won’t most likely volunteer on their own. And be prepared to tell them why you want one, such as: I have been asked before why I was travelling with a non-american passport while having an American birthplace and I want to be prepared (specially since that means that you have handed over your American passport if you have one and thus you can’t travel with one). At Ottawa, when requested they did find something in the computer to print up. I believe I read somewhere on this site (most likely Relinquishment/ Renunciation thread), that someone prepared there own text and asked them to sign it.
@ AussieFred
If you relinquish, your date of expatriation will definitely be the date of your expatriating act, which unless you have something else from the list, will be the date of your naturalization.
If you renounce (at $450 each), your date of expatriation will be the date of your appointment at the consulate.
The IRS requires you to file taxes as a US person up until the day before your appointment at the consulate, regardless of the date of your expatriation, but you fill out different sections of 8854 depending on the date of expiration. Since you have to file taxes as a US person up until day before your appointment, it would be logical if your SS withholding also starts from that date rather than the actual date of expiration. BUT (and this is a very BIG but), logic is not usually considered an IRS strongpoint.
You could try enquiring of SS, but you also might just want to pay the $900 for the 2 of you and be done with it. Good luck.
@ IsabellaG,
You might want to also have a look at 7 FAM 1260, Renunciation.
There’s also links to the other manuals in the sidebar at “Dept of State Forms and Procedure Manuals for Renouncing/Relinquishing” in the “Important Information” box.
@ IsabellaG
As Pacifica said, you should make your own copies, but you can also certainly ask for copies anyway. Consulates and embassies in different locations seem to do those types of things quite differently. I’m rather shocked to read some of the descriptions of heavily armed security and nasty staff attitudes in the consular reports, since they are completely different from anything I’ve experienced in Osaka, and I know that Tokyo proactively offered that letter for someone who was likely to travel to the US in the interim.
I guess be prepared for the worst, but hopefully it will not be as bad as what some have experienced.
@Aussie Fred
Good Luck with Soc Security. I’ve been trying to have a conversation with them for over a year. I originally tried calling and it was too complex for them to understand, so I was told to write. I wrote, 5 times, no reply. SO, I was visiting daughter in the US and went into the local office, explained everything, gave them my CLN and my address. and my visitor visa waiver number and entry stamp in my EU passport . They took copies of everything. Next thing I know , I receive a letter threatening to take away my Soc Sec benefits as I am now assumed to be “unlawfully living in the USA”. Why on earth I should choose to renounce and then move back to the USA God only knows. May have to get a lawyer if they fail to answer my 6th letter. Nothing works in that country.
Renounce and save yourself the hassle of dealing with backdated SS taxes.
@Calgary411
“DoS doesn’t really care about tax matters, not their mandate or area of expertise. IRS will not get a 4079. The only document IRS receives is a copy of each CLN that is issued 7 FAM 1243.”
Nor does the IRS expect them to either, apparently, or they would by now have integrated the two systems. Yet, the IRS and US Treasury expect foreign banks to have a working knowledge of a foreign country’s “tax matters” enough to know a ‘Murcun when they see one.
The Canada IGA provides the “reasonable explanation” provision for relinquishment if a CLN is not produced.
Has anyone found a definition of “reasonable explanation” from either CRA, the US or the compliance jackals?
The closest that I came was a reference to a “checklist.”
@ IsabellaG
I’ve posted this before but just in case you are curious about how an “interim letter” might be worded this is what my husband received from the Calgary consulate when he asked for something to present at the border. They sent him this letter by mail about a week after his appointment. Good luck!
That’s the letter I got and I still say State has been extremely helpful all along the way. They really are backed up and so probably are used to people asking for these letters. I’m at the eleventh month mark now for my relinquishment of citizenship document to be approved and show up in Canada. It is taking forever, I haven’t written them a second time as I wrote them at the nine month mark in June. I’ll just wait one more month when I hit the one year mark and ask if I can check with someone in D.C. directly. Mine was not a complicated relinquishment at all. Something is really backed up and I wish we could determine why particularly Canadian relinquishments are taking so much longer than in other countries? Are they? Do we have any other data? Some who relinquished the same month or the month before have had their CLN’s since March now so …is there some reason North American relinquishments are taking so much longer? It looks like these interim letters of travel are going to be even more paperwork for State in Canada to have to deal with. Something has to give so as to streamline this process too.
@Pacifica777
Thanks for those links! I like being prepared, and at least now I can help point out to them – in their own manuals – what they do and do not need.
@TokyoRose:
I agree… prepare for the worst, hope for the best. I don’t THINK it will be that bad here. I’m pretty sure they won’t even know what to do with someone who wants to renounce. When I look on the embassy website, I can get an appointment for “notarial and other services” (I presume that is the option I want) two days from now if I want. So there’s no run on the embassy here like there is in other places. That could work to my advantage (no jaded employees tired of dealing with “idiots” who don’t appreciate US citizenship) or not (they are not likely to know what to do).
@EmBee:
That letter is perfect! Thank you for reposting it. I’ll copy it and have it, and ask them either to sign it, or (preferably) get them to type it on an embassy letterhead.
I’m wondering if I should give the embassy notice that I am coming in to renounce, or just make the “notarial and other services” appt and then tell them only when I get there? I know in a lot of places where the wait is 4-6 months they are requiring a lot more to be pre-done, but like I said, where I am it seems I can get an appt in 2 days. On the one hand, “pre-warning” them will make sure that they read up on the manual so they know what to do, and make sure they have a consul available. On the other hand, should I really be arming them so they can warm up the “stink-eye” just for me? Maybe I should call in anonymously to the embassy and see what they require?
@ IsabellaG
Definitely try to find out what they require ahead of time. You don’t want to arrive on the Vice Council’s day off. Calgary, for instance, has specific days of the week set aside for relinquishments.
@IsabellaG, I second EmBee’s suggestion. Check first to make sure they know it’s a renunciation. Otherwise it may be a wasted trip for you if they don’t know what documents are needed, the Consul isn’t available, staff don’t even know what they’re supposed to do for renunciations, etc. Also when I did my renunciation in Bern, they sent me files of the documents for me to fill in and wanted them back at the embassy at least a week before my appointment so they could do whatever they needed to at their end before I arrived to renounce. You may find the embassy you plan to use has the same regs which would make an appointment in a couple of days’ time too soon for them to process the paperwork.
@IsabellaG
IMPORTANT: If you just make an appointment for “notarial services other than above” and bring in your docs and tell them you want to renounce, it is almost certain that you will have to make 2 visits to the embassy. And unless the embassy in your country is very unusual, it will likely be impossible to “call in” (the phone menu is usually useless).
You can e-mail them and ask them for an appointment to renounce (or relinquish, but I think I recall that you’re a renounce), and they will tell you how to proceed. For your reference, here is what I did last month and it worked pretty well for me:
I made an appointment online for “notarial services not listed above” for about 2 weeks later and emailed them to say that my purpose was to initiate the process to relinquish. I new that this appointment would probably not be usable for that purpose, but I figured that having an appointment might encourage them to promptly reply to my email. After 4 business days they emailed back with a link for me to read about the consequences of losing US citizenship on the DOS website and if I wanted to proceed I should send them by post a completed DS-4079 together with copies of my US and Japanese passports, US birth certificate, and other docs. They sent me a pdf of the DS-4079. They also said I could bring the docs in person at the appointment I had made and “have a brief interview to answer any questions I might have on the process”. I mailed the docs, but still went in on 28 July anyway, since getting to the consulate it is not all that inconvenient for me and I wanted to get a feel for things. At that preliminary appointment, which was with a local staff supervisor and very pleasant, they said it would take about 2 weeks to schedule the final appointment with a consular officer, but I wanted some time to arrange my finances before my final tax day, so I asked for an appointment about 6 weeks from that time. They let me choose any day and time that was convenient for me, and said just email if I needed to reschedule, which would be no problem at all.
I hope this helps.
@EmBee, Medea
Your suggestions make perfect sense, thanks! I guess I’m just nervous about the whole thing, and want to minimize exposure as much as possible.
@Tokyo Rose:
Thank you SO much for sharing your experience! It really does help a lot. I think I will do pretty much exactly what you did. (I am hoping to have only one appt – getting to the embassy is a pain – but even if it takes two, I can live with it.)
I am so thankful for this site, and all of you who are helping me… I think I would be a total wreck without the support!
@ IsabellaG,
Re exposure – With a lot of the consulates, when you send a letter of inquiry about renouncing, they send a robo-reply e-mail with the details/instructions of what to do, so no human contact at that stage. Don’t know if yours does, though. BTW, have you checked the Consulate Report Directory? Maybe we have reports from your embassy in it – a caution, though, things can change over time, so one should always contact their local consulate/embassy, but the directory’s good for a heads-up.
@TokyoRose,
Thanks for sharing your info on Osaka. I’ll add it to the Consulate Report Directory.
Could you also let us know in the month/year you booked your appointment, had your appointment, got your CLN.? I’m keeping a chart of this data in the appendix.
@pacifica777
I’ve been keeping a record of my actions and have an incomplete report for the Directory, but I thought it would be better to wait at least until my final appointment at the consulate, which I have scheduled for 18 September to give me some time for financial arrangements.
If you you prefer a partial report of activity to date, I can post it in the Directory thread. I originally thought I would wait until the CLN, which they said I could expect within a month, but as many others have been experiencing delays, I’m thinking to just wait until my final appointment on 18 Sep.
So far, Osaka has been a piece of cake. Certainly no guards with automatic weapons; I don’t think the elderly Japanese guard at security even had a sidearm. It results in a must less intimidatory atmosphere, and I really feel for those who have had less pleasant consulate experiences.
Let me know if you want what I have to say midway; otherwise I’ll wait to post something more complete after 18 Sep.