Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
Administration – – could my last comment also (or alternately) be placed on the IBS page talking about Media comments please?
LM — can you place your comment where you want it to go as well. We can’t move it around easily (would have to ask Petros to do so). I could then either delete it from here if that is what you’d prefer. Thanks.
@AussieFred
As KalC has said, based on the background you presented, there is no reason whatsoever for your claim for relinquishment to be denied. 5 years is a bit of a long wait after your naturalization, but as long as you have not done anything to demonstrate an intent to retain you US citizenship (such as renewing a US passport, etc., which you have said you have not), you should have no problem.
As KalC pointed out, the key word here is INTENT, but I might modify that just a bit to make it clearer and say INFORMED INTENT, since you had to have known what your were doing at the time you were doing it. So on my 4079 I stressed that I had “intent with full understanding of the consequences”.
Your CLN should therefore be backdated to your date of your expatriating act (naturalization to Australia with intent to relinquish US citizenship) in 2009.
@IsabellaG I had already found and read up on the information here before I actually got in contact with them, and I didn’t want to give a reason because, frankly, the most important information they needed to know was that I wanted out. They asked me for all this information, including my Social Security Number, (which they are also not supposed to do) and when I tried not to give it, they said I couldn’t get an appointment until I did. It’s absolutely ridiculous. I thought they weren’t supposed to take my passport either, but the moment I walked in the door, she said “Give me your passport”. I thought she was just going to look at it, but she put it in some kind of plastic bag thing. Once it was clear that I wasn’t going to get it back, I told her she wasn’t allowed to take it, and she said, “I can’t give it back to you, you’ve already handed it over.” As I mentioned before, I didn’t fight them that hard on it cause I just wanted it to be over, and I THOUGHT it was only going to take 5 weeks, so I thought I could handle 5 weeks without a passport. They also went to get a woman who was supposed to be ‘right outside the door’ for the renunciation, and they kept me waiting in the room, alone with nothing but a clock ticking on the wall for over half an hour. I finally looked up at the ceiling and said, “I don’t know where you are, but I know you can hear me, and I know you can see me. I WANT to do this, I have ALWAYS wanted to do this, and the only thing you are doing is solidifying my decision. Now GET IN HERE and let’s do this.”
Lo and behold, she came in the door not 10 seconds later.
@KalC
@TokyoRose
Hey thanks so much for the info. In a previous phone conversation and written submission to the consulate I made it clear the act was done with intent. I made the same statement on the DS-4079 I’m about to send off to the consulate but will add the “with full understanding of the consequences” bit. I also explained the 5 year gap stating illness of parent, requiring home palliative/hospice care with his subsequent death.
Other than the 5 year gap as far as I can see the only possible issue might be continued filing of US tax returns. When answering yes to DS-4079 13(e) (Do you file US tax returns) my comment is:
“It is my understanding that until the US consulate was notified of my voluntary act, a certificate of loss of citizenship is issued and that I have filed IRS form 8854 I am required to continue filing US income tax returns. I have acted accordingly.”
That ok?
Cheers,
Fred
@UtterlyFrustrated, this really isn’t the way embassy/consulate staff should behave, but each one seems to operate to its own rules/regs a lot of the time. I know you haven’t said which country you’re in, but would ask when this is finally done with that you write a report of your experiences for posting in the Consular Report Directory so anyone else who’s living in your country can read of your experiences and be prepared.
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/consulate2/
Re your passport, yes they are always taken because they’re sent off with your application (as far as I know) to Washington for the final approval. You’ll eventually get it back with holes in it and a stamp saying it’s invalid from such and such a date. Not much help to you at the moment though.
@ medea
A friend renounced at the Luxembourg embassy. Two appointments but two days apart. They were told to keep their US passports until the CLN arrived and then they would trade them in for the CLN when it arrived at the Embassy. Thir passports were eventually sent back to them with holes punched in. Interesting thing was, they asked which passport they should use in the meantime( they had a Swiss one) for travel to the States if there was a family emergency. They were told to use their US passport.
@heidi, I guess that’s something else that varies then. They took my passport when I did my renunciation at Bern and eventually returned it with holes when I collected the CLN a few weeks later.
@AussieFred, yes that’s exactly the sort of answer to give. That’s certainly the IRS’s take on it so I can’t see they could argue that you didn’t mean to relinquish when you got your new citizenship. It’s quite clear on the 8854 form now that the IRS work to the date the embassy/consulate was informed as your expatriation date for tax purposes, even if you are claiming an intended citizenship change from several years ago. It’s just bad luck that your parent became seriously ill and postponed the completion of your relinquishing act.
Fred. Each case is unique. You really aren’t supposed to have to explain why you continued to file. You did because you thought you were obeying their law. Seems fine to me. Go for it.
@ AussieFred
Yes, that bit on the tax filing should be fine. I simply put, “yes, as required by law”. As KalC pointed out, the 4079 was not purpose-designed for relinquishing/renouncing, but more for recovery of citizenship. Your filing of tax returns is a non-issue re your relinquishment.
The actions that might signal an intent to retain US citizenship after naturalisation to another country (i.e., the intent to have dual citizenship) would be more like renewing your US passport or traveling on the US passport, voting in a US election, or registering your children as dual citizens after you have naturalised (before you naturalised this is not a problem).
You still might be questioned about the 5-year gap, so be prepared just in case. They could deny your relinguishment and make you renounce if they feel there is evidence that AT THE TIME of your expatriating act (naturalisation) you intended to retain US citizenship and have dual citizenship but recently changed your mind. I’ve read all of the consulate reports here on IB, and it seems like most consular officers are not that harsh, but it can vary quite a bit. Just be ready for the question “Are you sure you intended to abandon your US citizenship at the time of your naturalization and that it is not a more recent decision?” You still should not have a problem, because even if they suspect that is the case, you are the only source of information on your own intent (as long as there are none of the other issues mentioned above), but just in case they ask a question like that, don’t let it get you flustered.
@UtterlyFrustrated
Thank you for sharing your experience, even though it does scare the dickens out of me. I can only hope that my embassy will be staffed by professionals.
@ Medea, Tokyo Rose, KalC et al:
On the 4079 I was planning to just tick “no” for “have you ever filed US taxes”. This last bit of discussion has given me pause. Should I add some sort of comment – “No, because my income was always below filing requirements”, or “No, because I didn’t know”, or just tick “no” and be done? Does the State Dept care if I “boldly” state I have never paid taxes? Will they pass this info along to the IRS?
@Isabella, Tick No, if thats the truth. And if you tick No and the reason was you were not required then state why.
@IsabellaG
If you have not filed US tax forms because — indeed — your income has always been below the filing requirements, then say so; this is an honest statement that you can sign and swear to and, if ever needed (highly unlikely) can demonstrate.
@ George, LM
The honest-to-goodness truth is a) I didn’t have a clue I had to file US taxes (I moved here when I was five – I didn’t exactly become conversant with US tax law), and b) even if I did know, I have constantly fallen below ANY reporting levels.
So I am in effect compliant (besides FBAR filings) by default.
An additional unrelated question:
How do I get e-mail notifications of comments on other threads that I am interested in but have not posted on? Just ticking “notify me of follow-up comments” doesn’t work – do I have to tick it AND hit “post comment”, even though I don’t want to post anything, and will be posting a blank comment?
@IsabellaG
You can jet say “No” re having filed US taxes, with no explanation whatsoever. The purpose of the question is to ask about your connections to the US, not to squire regarding tax compliance.
@AussieFred
One other thing, you mentioned that you and your wife were relinquishing at the same time. Don’t be surprised if they want to do all or part of part of the interviews separately. They are charged with confirming that the relinquishment is not being done under duress, including pressure from a spouse or other family member.
Hi folks,
I successfully renounced my US citizenship (in Vancouver) in 2013. I am now only Canadian. (Also, my Canadian passport lists my birthplace as Vancouver).
I am now considering applying for a Nexus card.
Have any former Americans successfully received a Nexus card?
I read on Isaac Brock about the one case where a person was denied, possibly due to their renouncement. But I am wondering if that is an isolated case, and if anyone has been successful.
Thanks
@KalC
@TokyoRose
Thanks again for the all the info.
I had expected the date of citizenship loss to have been either the date I notified the consulate of the expatriating event or the date the CLN was finally issued. The prospect of the date being retrospective to 2009 might have unintended consequences.
One that comes to mind is that we receive Social Security and being US citizens living in Australia received full payments. We have filed us tax returns since 2009 and therefore have “paid” any tax due on the taxable part of Social Security income. Social Security withholds 30% for non-citizens living in Australia. You see the problem with citizenship loss being back dated to 2009. Social Security may want 30% of payments paid back.
I’m rethinking just going for renouncing.
Fred
There are three dates. The date of your relinquishing act, 2009, the date of the appointment where you inform them of a relinquishing act, and the date the CLN is issued. It’s well documented that your citizenship eventually ends on the date of the relinquishing act, 2009. However, your IRS obligations don’t end until the day of your appointment to inform them of the act. Is there some special rule as you described for Social Security taxation? Who knows. If you try to find out, are you exposing yourself? Who knows. The only advantage to you for claiming the 2009 relinquisment is saving $450. It could be cheap piece of mind to just relinquish instead and pay the $450. Then there is nothing to worry about with regards to anything you did during the last five years.
@Tokyo Rose
Understood. I was just wondering which would cause less problems down the road. If I fill in that I am below reporting requirements, that inasmuch as tells them from the start that I am a minnow (assuming they believe me). On the other hand, in general I rather say as little as possible.
Do they give you copies of any of those forms you fill out on renunciation day? Can you request copies? Or is the best you can do just write whatever you put on a blank form and keep that.
Isabella,
Re:
Best not to do that — you could get too much spam for those posts going to your email along with the good. A problem.
@UtterlyFrustrated
Your story about being left alone at the consulate and having to wait is…interesting…and also somewhat chilling, because the same thing happened to me. I was in a very small room with a pane of bullet proof glass between me and the administrative staff woman who took my passport and sent me down the hall to pay the $450 for renouncing. After the few formalities were done she also left me alone there for about 30 minutes. All I had to occupy myself was watching the reflection in the glass of the heavily armed guards on patrol behind me. It seemed there was a different guard every 5 minutes. (It was not the same person patrolling back and forth.) Why are they so heavily armed? What kind of threat do they actually expect? You can’t bring so much as a toothpick into the consulate without it being confiscated for suspicion of being a lethal weapon. Anyway, I do wonder if they intentionally let everyone wait before the official comes to do the actual renunciation procedure and have them under surveillance during that time. Your report suggests that. This happened at the consulate in Frankfurt, by the way.
Maybe they want us to have more time to think over all the ‘privileges’ we are giving up and reconsider. 🙂
Seriously though, I was told I had to wait (about 30 mins) while the renunciation documents were being typed. I suggest everyone check them carefully before taking the oath, my name was spelt incorrectly as well as other mistakes. I had also prepared a statement as to why I was renouncing, but the Consul said it was not needed! I said I wanted her to included it anyway.
@notamused when did you renounce? I’d be interested to know what they said your wait times were going to be vs what they actually were / are. I did assume that they were giving me time to ‘think over’ my decision, but I knew the drill from the police, and it just made me angry so I wanted to get it over with as soon as possible. I didn’t see any guards changing, but I did have to go through three security doors to get to the person in question. There was the same bulletproof glass separating us that you described, but I also had the door shut behind me that was ridiculously heavy, so I didn’t see how often people were passing by.
@Heidi I also had the same problem that there were mistakes on my application. The date was off by a month and my birth state was spelled wrong.