Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
Decisions, Decisions. Right. If only you didn’t have that US place of birth which will likely prove more difficult as time goes by for crossing the border, you could hopefully make your case for any of your banking needs. Congratulations on receipt of the documentation for your case to convince a US Consulate of your relinquishment in 1985. That must feel good as you wait to determine your next steps.
In the meantime, the Canadian Challenge is for you and all like you (whether or not they can prove a relinquishment) — as well as others. Hope you’re with us to support ADCS-ADSC so you and others should not have to go to such lengths to live normal type lives outside of your accidental place of birth.
@CanadianGirl,
So glad to hear you got that paperwork, and that you knew in 1985 that you were still a US citizen and that you would lose that citizenship by joining the military and taking the commission and that you did it all with intent to relinquish at the time. All good!
Have you told us, were you at least 18 years old in June 1985? That’s a definite requirement (whether it was the law at the time or not).
Decisions, indeed. Offhand, I think you’re the first at IBS with a claim based on military service.
@CanadianGirl, allow me to provide some assistance in this regard. I am going to provide some links that you already likely have, they are provided for others.
You are correct in that you need to decide weither to obtain a CLN or not obtain same. Regardless of path, you MUST build a “Relinquishment Folder (RF).”
In that RF would be a copy of your US Birth Certificate, proof of Canadian Citizenship and a copy of the US Code Section outlining the whys and wherefore of relinquishing.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1481
Be sure to check the “notes” page on that link so you can word process what US Code said when you relinquished.
In order for you to have relinquished when you relinquished you must have been of the knowledge that you were a US Citizen, that you knew this was a relinquishing act and that you intended to relinquish your US Citizenship.
It would have been highly likely that the Canadian Forces Recruiter would have quickly noted your US Birth and would have advised you that you could lose your US Citizenship. I do not know Canadian Forces policy or Canadian Law at that time however it would have been likely during the interview process with senior officers that they would have asked your views on US Citizenship and if you intended to keep it. I would think even if you could have lawfully kept it, you would have been discouraged to keep it. The US is dead set against keeping other nationality so they would understand that south of the border.
The people at the state department will not have a clue on the Cadet program!!! They will likely not believe it qualifies under 8 US Code. They will think its some “second class” designation.
http://www.cadets.ca/en/join/cadet-instructors-cadre-officer.page
You will need to convert the Canadian terms into something that will be understood south of the border.
Assuming 2LT, you were “commissioned a second lieutenant in the Canadian Forces (Reserve).”
The document that I would want for this file would be your Commission from the Governor General in the name of HM QEII;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commission_%28document%29
If that did not come in the recent post and you do not have the original, you can likely request a replacement through channels.
What did you do as a Reserve Officer? You were a “training officer that provided initial entry training to young recruits.”
When did you do this? You ” trained ______days/hours per month similiar to the US Army/Naval/Marine Corps Reserve.”
Hope that helps.
Let me reiterate along with Calgary who the challenge is for?
1.) Canadian Citizens with a CLN because they be facing humiliating discrimination that other Canadians will not face when opening an account.
2.) Canadian Citizens with “indica” who do not have a CLN because they too will be facing discrimination when opening accounts.
3.) ALL Canadian Citizens who may someday fall into the ever expanding definition of US Person.
4.) Former US Persons who may likely be snared back into US Personness. There is NOTHING stopping them from passing a new law that says “All former US Citizens shall be considered a US Person.” As far as that goes, there is nothing stopping them from giving everyone their citizenship back even though they do not want it!!!
5.) Family and business associates of the above.
Everyone, committing a relinquishing act and/or getting a CLN is NOT, repeat NOT, absolute closure until and unless the Canadian Government treats ALL Canadian Citizens as equal!! You can not stop what laws are passed south of the border but you can stop what your government does to its citizens in its territory.
@George, @WhatAmI, and @Calgary411,
Thanks for your input. I will definitely start compiling a relinquishment folder. I was 19 years old at the time, so that’s working for me! The application form lists my place of birth as being the USA. The package did not include my commission document from the Governor General though. About 4 years ago I might have actually discarded my nice linen commissioning scroll that was rolled up in its protective tube….trying to save space in my closet. Indeed the Governor General (or a representative of) had signed it. Wish I could turn back the clock on that one. I don’t know if its possible to get that replaced…. (yes, I kick myself all the time for not keeping it). I will however, make efforts to see about that.
I do very much appreciate the input of fellow Brockers here, and I continually feel for others in our situation. I will make a donation to the ADCS, hoping my small drop in the bucket will help.
@CanadianGirl, replacement contact information; (I think your Commission is THE best document to have and to document. Further, if you were not going to get a CLN then your commission with a copy of 8 US Code would be very good)
To obtain commission scrolls, CF service pins and identification cards (CF 75) , contact the;
Director Military Careers
Administration and Resource Management (DMCARM)
at (613) 945-0274 or (613) 992-1228, or write to:
Director Military Careers Administration
and Resource Management 4-3-3-2
National Defence Headquarters
MGen George R. Pearkes Building
101 Colonel By Drive
Ottawa ON K1A 0K2
http://old.legion.ca/_PDF/SBureau/ReplacementMedals_e.PDF
And found the following that talks about just a certified copy;
http://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=48163.0
@CanadianGirl, if you request a replacement (best) or copy and do the request in writing, state exactly why you need it. We need others to know and thats a good lesson for others. Explain that you relinquished your “clinging US Citizenship,” that you did this according to the US Law as it existed and now you are being FORCED to document this decades and I mean decades after the fact!!
I would also get your local MP involved in getting a replacement and make them well aware why you are doing this!!
Thank you so much @George. Invaluable information for me, and btw, I recently contacted my MPs office, twice, over a month ago…..no return call.
Thanks for this list, George.
Also, for all Canadians, in that they will know that their rights under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms and other Canadian laws are not bogus but the same as for any other Canadian, that precedent must not be set for any other country’s law to override the laws of Canada.
Also, for all Canadians, in that Canada will remain a sovereign country not ruled by other countries’ laws.
@CanadianGirl, as you send off written requests to get the commission replaced make sure you say you need this to “document your 1985 relinquishment of US nationality” and that you now need this “because of the Canada/USA FATCA IGA” which is why you never treated the scroll as a “must have document.”
I swear I am cycling through the 5 stages of grief on this whole thing. (Who died? My vote is for Reason and Sanity.) Depression and anger are my defaults – acceptance is a long ways away.
Quick question – how much are you required to say about WHY you are renouncing when you go to renounce? I presume I have to say SOMETHING so they think I’m not under duress etc, but exactly how little can I get away with?
Also, WHAT do I say? I may want/need to get a visa to visit the US at some point. (I really don’t want to give their economy any money, but..) So while I could use the opportunity to speak my mind, I don’t want to get on some sort of no-fly, visa-denial, somebody-look-at-her-she-might-be-a-terrorist list.
@IsabellaG, you don’t have to say anything. I wasn’t asked at all when I went to the embassy here in Switzerland, but I guess it depends on the embassy/consulate whether they ask or not. But what’s often suggested here on IBS is to say “I want to simplify my life.” Which you’ll certainly do once you shed the US chains.
@Isabella, you are not required to give any reason. It’s going on almost three years for me so I forget my exact words. I told them that I wanted to be a citizen of only one country, and that country was Canada. I was not asked any more questions, I was simply told of all the advantages of retaining US citizenship. Had I been pressed I would have probably just told the truth, I live in Canada and have since I was a child, and I have no connection to the US.
@Medea and @TrueNorth:
Thanks. Simple and to the point.. I like it.
The Calgary Herald has a poll on it’s website today: Do you think it’s fair for the U.S. to tax its citizens living abroad? Out of 1573 votes, 38 % are saying yes. Sad that people are supporting this, tax with no representation. Letter to the Editor in the Calgary Herald today, too, about a woman who was told 4 years ago that she had to start filing US returns by her accountant. Probably more letters to follow in the coming days, Calgary has a large population of US citizens and probably many accidentals.
heartsick and other Calgary Herald readers,
I just sent an email to the Calgary Herald letters@calgaryherald.com to say:
and then my reasoning for asking that instead.
I think the average person who doesn’t have the facts will likely just answer “Yes”.
Calgary et al
I think many are falling back into the trap of using the term dual
Dual is a positive term and evokes envy
I would suggest writting to the paper and suggest a new poll
Should Canadian citizens resident in Canada with clinging us nationality be subject to us tax
In regards to that Calgary poll question even I might answer yes
The reason is that us citizen is not defined
For instance I do not think us persons abroad should be taxed but could agree possibly on
us citizens being taxed
Its like the group American citizens abroad. I could never conceive of myself as a member because I am not American nor abroad. Going to the Usa is abroad and foreign
Think of the standard poll question should the rich pay more tax to get what I mean
The Calgary Herald poll results are rather shocking.
“Do you think it’s fair for the U.S. to tax its citizens living abroad?
Yes 37.91% (682 votes)
No 62.09% (1,117 votes) ”
It is a badly worded question about a complex issue. But if it is such a good thing, why is there no other country in the world, except Eritrea, that taxes their citizens abroad?
I will add that to what I’ve already sent the Calgary Herald via Letter to the Editor. Thanks, George!
Sorry if my questions have been asked/answered before – searched without luck.
Background
My wife and I have been in contact with the consulate re: relinquishing citizenship. After a phone call and couple of e-mails they have asked that we complete DS-4079 and nominate a few dates for an interview (we have been told only one interview would be required). We have completed form DS-4079 and are about to send it off to the local consulate with our preferred interview dates. We are claiming a voluntary expatriating event in 2009 (acquired Australian citizenship). We have/claim the delay in notifying of the expatriating event was due to the illness and subsequent death of a parent.
Since 2009 haven’t used or renewed US passport, of course haven’t traveled to the US, haven’t voted, haven’t used any consular services, section 12 we have significant ties to Australia (27 years, property, friends, etc) and section 13 basically no ties to the US. DS-4079 asks if US taxes were filed – answered yes with explanation that until consulate was notified and IRS form 8854 was filed we were required to file.
My question, well actually two.
If are claim is judged successful what date will we be deemed to have lost our US citizenship? 2009, date of the consulate interview, date the CLN is issued?
Based on the background information what chances do we have of our claim be accepted?
Thanks to the Society and to all who have contributed.
Cheers,
Fred
@IsabellaG I was basically told at the consulate that i was GOING to provide a reason for my choice to renounce, otherwise they wouldn’t go ahead with it. I didn’t argue with them because I thought if they want to know, I’ll tell them. I tried to keep it positive on both sides and just explained that my ties were to my new country and not America. I was American in passport only.
AussieFred. Your confusion is understandable . Form 4079 was originally intended for those who had lost US citizenship and WANTED IT BACk. Now it is being used for precisely the opposite reasons. Hence the confusing structure of the questionnaire .
If your INTENT was to relinquish, then they have no reason whatsoever to deny a CLN. It is supposed to be dated when you became Aussies with intent. The IRS is a separate issue. I couldn’t tell from your post whether or not you kept filing. As I said, it’s a separate issue.
I think that some more articles need to be put out there that talk about how FATCA is effecting the entire Cdn population, how banks are going to be raising their fees, more about 2nd class citizenship and the significant impaling of the Cdn Charter of Rights (and what this could mean in the future for other citizens), how (as I think it was Petros has said) if we cannot trust our government to abide by the established laws of our land, it is necessary for citizens to rise up and take this issue to the courts. There should be interviews with folks like NativeCanadian and other spouses of US-tainted individuals, with Cdn-born children of one or two USCs and with business partners of US-tainted folk. It is necessary for the general public to see how this is hitting a much larger group.
As well, it really bothers me every time I see an article about FATCA and the image with the news article is that of the IRS. There should be an image of the Canadian Charter with holes in it or the visual that we’ve seen here on IBS earlier in the spring of the cemetery headstone that says “Canada Born July 1st, 1867 Died July 1st, 2014 Congress Has Spoken”. Somehow I think more people would begin to relate to this rather than it being “just a US-person” problem.
@ UtterlyFrustrated:
First, I am so sorry for what you are going through. It sucks.
Second, the nerve of them! You had to give them a reason or else? A clear intent and absence of duress is supposed to be it. I don’t have a big problem telling them something simple, but I shouldn’t be told “explain or else”. And then what if they don’t like the explanation?
The sheer audacity of it boggles the mind.