Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@notamused:
2013 German naturalization numbers are available in a publication at destats.de, allowing the below to be updated (from above post dated July 30, 2014):
Total naturalizations of Americans in Germany:
2006: 429
2007: 434
2008: 595
2009: 578
2010: 771
2011: 869
2012: 756
2013: 994
Total naturalizations of Americans in Germany who retained existing (US) citizenship:
2006: 347
2007: 352
2008: 531
2009: 501
2010: 685
2011: 786
2012: 673
2013: 876
Total naturalizations of Americans in Germany under Art.116 Abs.2 S.1 GG, Frühere deutsche Staatsang.” (Reclaiming earlier German citizenship) and retaining existing (US) citizenship:
2006: 303
2007: 322
2008: 514
2009: 485
2010: 663
2011: 752
2012: 592
2013: N/A
https://www.destatis.de/DE/Publikationen/Thematisch/Bevoelkerung/MigrationIntegration/Einbuergerungen2010210137004.pdf?__blob=publicationFile
Total naturalizations of Americans in Germany who did NOT retain existing (US) citizenship:
2006: 82
2007: 82
2008: 64
2009: 77
2010: 86
2011: 83
2012: 83
2013: 118
Comment: There was an uptick in 2013 of USCs naturalizing in Germany who did not retain US citizenship.
Two interesting statistics from this publication:
1) “Ausgeschöpftes Einbürgerungspotenzial: at 0.3%. This is a measurement of the USCs in Germany who have claimed German citizenship, i.e., 99.7% could potentially claim German citizenship but have not. (p.131)
2) Naturalization through Adoption: 8. These children would retain US citizenship and their adoptive parents should file US tax returns and the FinCEN 114, as necessary. Of course, many German banks would not welcome their bank accounts. (p.149)
@ Innocent
I find those statistics a little difficult to interpret.
What is the time factor of reporting those US citizens who obtain German citizenship and retain US citizenship? It does take a while to renounce.
Don’t the US still have bases in Germany. (can’t think why Angela hasn’t thrown them all out after snooping on her!). Could those US persons account for many the US persons who ‘could’ claim German nationality but do not?
@ innocent
I guess fluency in the German language would be a barrier to many.
@Heidi, “can’t think why Angela hasn’t thrown them all out after snooping on her.”
Unlike other countries, the US Bases in Germany are on land that was effectively seized in WW2. Literally the agreements for the US to retain the bases was written by…..the USofA. Same with Japan.
@Heidi:
“What is the time factor of reporting those US citizens who obtain German citizenship and retain US citizenship? It does take a while to renounce.”
Comment: Don’t know. Some USCs apply for German citizenship under laws that requires them to give up US citizenship, while most others do not. I suspect that some of those who obtain German citizenship and retain US citizenship later give up US citizenship, but that isn’t captured in these statistics.
“Don’t the US still have bases in Germany. (can’t think why Angela hasn’t thrown them all out after snooping on her!). Could those US persons account for many the US persons who ‘could’ claim German nationality but do not?”
Comment: I read recently that the US still has 35,000 US military personnel in Germany, the largest group stationed abroad besides Afghanistan. To be included in the “Ausgeschöpftes Einbürgerungspotenzial”, i.e., the 99.7%, a foreigner needs to have lived in Germany for at least 10 years. All other German citizenship requirements are assumed, e.g., German language, country knowledge, economic self-sufficiency, etc., even though this would not be the case for all. (see p.6 of above link). I would think that few, if any, active US military personnel would be included in this 99.7% due to 10 year requirement. I also agree with the direction of your comment on the German language, although I cannot substantiate this.
Additional comments:
a. 994/ .003 = 331,333 USCs living in Germany for more than 10 years. To be more accurate, this extrapolation needs a percentage with more digits beyond 0.3%.
b. The German “Ausländerzentralregister” (AZR) contains statistics on the length of stay in Germany by foreign citizenship. It would be informative to obtain a total count of Americans in this list.
@George/ Heidi:
Last week the German government sent letters to foreign embassies, including the US, that they are to report all spies based in Germany. According to Spiegel, there are 200 US spies with registered diplomatic status operating from Germany. With the US military’s Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA), there may be many more:
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/spionage-bundesregierung-aufdeckung-aller-agenten-in-deutschland-a-985199.html
Within those statistics there could be US persons who do not take up German citizenship as they have another EU nationality enabling them to live in Germany and not take up German citizenship. They could then renounce or stay under the radar depending on birthplace.
@Innocente, ha, ha. Like they’re going to confirm that sort of info. Tell us about your spies – come on people! Does the German government really think this is going to happen?
@Heidi:
There is an interesting statistic in publication “Ausländische Bevölkerung – Fachserie 1 Reihe 2 – 2013”, Excel table 13, available at:
https://www.destatis.de/DE/Publikationen/Thematisch/Bevoelkerung/MigrationIntegration/AuslaendBevoelkerung.html
In 2013 there were 1,728 US citizens who left the Foreigners Central Register due to change of citizenship. This is 734 more than the number of US citizens who naturalized in Germany in 2013 (and 1,610 more than the 118 who gave up US citizenship to obtain German citizenship). Note that Germany removes foreigners from the Zentralregister when they naturalize as Germans and whether they retained another citizenship is irrelevant.
Possible explanation:
734 (1,728 – 994) US citizens in Germany re-registered as citizens of other countries, besides Germany, in the Ausländerzentralregister. The reason for that is open but can be deduced.
@Medea:
The German government may be playing a game of chess with foreign governments on the spy registration issue. If they catch one later who is not registered there could then be grounds for repercussions: “we warned you and you didn’t respond”.
A friend of mine lives in a tiny village in Norfolk England. She knows of 4 Americans who live there, 3 have renounced this last year, the other is planning it, how is that for statistics? 🙂
@LivingToRenounce
If you renounce in 2014, you need to file 2009-2013 tax returns in order to satisfy the 8854 5 year tax compliance test. If you do not satisfy the tax compliance test you will be a “covered expatriate”, which has a number of potentially negative ramifications. Note that 2014 would not count in the 5 year test because it is a partial year for people would renounce in 2014.
So, IMO, you should seriously consider filing 2009 as well.
Thanks @EmBee @tdott and @TokyoRose,
I really appreciate you taking the time to answer me! I will double check this with my accountant. Filing for 2009 is not an option for me. I am now sort of “at peace” with filing 5 years to get this over with. But 6, that would be too much at $4,000.00 a year in accounting fees. If I do 2009-2013, I am already late and risk becoming a covered expatriate (at least that is my understanding). I think, instead, I will try pushing my appointment to early January…
Hello All,
I’m new to posting here but have been reading up on the comments for quite some time. Since I’m in desperate need of support from people who know exactly what I’m going through, I’ve decided to make my first post here. I’ve been living in another country for about 10 years (won’t post which one, just in case), and I renounced last month. This whole process of receiving another nationality has been going on for nearly a year now, where the other government needed 3 months to approve my case after I had already spent 4 months jumping through hoops for them and taking all kinds of tests to ‘prove’ I was capable of being a citizen. Still, I was fine with all that, and I got the approval under the condition that I renounce my US citizenship. I was born and raised in the US, but never felt American, as odd as that may sound to some. So right after I graduated college, I left, and I integrated myself into another country so well that I can speak the local language without an accent and whenever I go to the US (which isn’t often), I get culture shock. I don’t really have any ties left in the US (all my friends are here), except for my mother, whom I love very dearly. For health reasons, she cannot visit me here, and I always have to go visit her. When I moved abroad, I was told by our CPA that I didn’t need to file a US tax return unless I worked for an American company. Like an idiot, I believed her, because I thought, “Well, she’s an accountant, she should know.” You can imagine my shock when I contacted the US embassy for an appointment and found out they were all lies. I am already paying crippling taxes in this country, and now the US wants a piece of what very little I have left? I don’t think so. I don’t make a lot, and in fact, I haven’t made over the required reporting amounts for about 2 of the five years. The other 3 I was barely over. I’ve only been allowed to work here freelance since I got here, and my citizenship is only guaranteed providing that I can shed the burden of my US citizenship AND keep my standard of living the same. When you work freelance, how in the world are you supposed to do that?
Originally, I was told before I went to the embassy that I would have my CLN in approximately 5 weeks. Upon arrival, one woman said to expect 8-10 weeks while another said 6-8. I e-mailed the consulate a while ago to ask if the wait times were still the same because I have lost a lot of work recently and cannot make it up because I have no passport. I have a driver’s license, but it’s not recognized here for whatever reason as a valid form of ID, so no ID, no job. I’ve spoken to my new country about getting a replacement ID from their system, but they said that legally my residence permit should be enough. I’m finding, though, that many companies around here are turned off and disturbed by the fact that I no longer have a passport and consider me some kind of risk. Anyway, I received an answer that the wait times are now around 12-15 weeks. This is the THIRD time that my wait time has been doubled. First 5, then ten, now 15! I asked if it was 15 in total or 15 from today, and they answered with “Hopefully in total :)”. They don’t even know!
This is absolutely ridiculous and unacceptable. I was supposed to start a new job in October – my dream job – which I can now no longer do because these idiots are just sitting on their hands while my life has been turned upside down. If my mother dies or gets even sicker, I will not be able to visit her because I have no passport, I can’t find decent work, and nothing in my personal life is allowed to change. I’m not even allowed to move or get married, meaning that I’m holding people at arm’s length just because I have absolutely no idea how long this is going to take. I’m not a person who cries, and in fact, I can’t even remember the last time I did before that, but the moment I got that E-mail, I just burst into hysterical tears. Every day feels like a year, and what happens if my renunciation is not even approved? I’ll have to start all over!
I’m also being ostracized by any and every American that I know, who can’t fathom that I would ever give up ‘the most precious and coveted citizenship in the world’. (Barf). I’ve had people start yelling at me on more than one occasion just because I simply said that I renounced. I didn’t say I hated the US, I didn’t say anything bad about the US, just that I love this country and I made the decision that I was a citizen here and not the US. Seriously, do people think we’re going to just magically change our opinions when they freak out like this? My feelings of apathy for the US have just slowly turned into loathing during the course of this process. People ask me every day if I have my passport from my new country, and all I can do is get tears in my eyes and beg them to please stop asking me that because this process will take a while. Still, they care, so they constantly keep asking. It’s like digging in the knife a little deeper, especially when my citizenship approval here can still be revoked if the government so chooses. I just want to be free, want to belong to a country that I feel so at home in, and I find it so ironic that a country which preaches freedom from the rooftops is taking so long at granting me mine. And if and when it does, it will punish me for that by ‘naming and shaming’ me on some stupid list and trying to paint me as a tax dodger. If it weren’t for my mother, I’d never set foot in that country again and have gone so far as refusing to buy US made products or even speak English.
Anyway, I’ve basically just stopped believing anything the consulate tells me because I have to in order to protect my sanity. I’m worried that when 15 weeks rolls around, they’ll extend it to 25 or something. My life stayed constant for a while, but now it’s starting to roll backwards like a boulder down a mountain and of course the US doesn’t care. Sorry I’m ranting to all of you for probably what seems like no apparent reason, I was just wondering if there was still anyone here in the forums or whatever these are outside of North America and what they were originally told about their CLNs vs when they actually got them.
@UtterlyFrustrated, welcome and I’m sorry to hear you’re in such an awkward position. Unfortunately, there’s no absolute when it comes to receiving your CLN – it can take as little as a month to over a year. Not knowing your country I have no idea of what recent delivery times have been like, but if you check on the Consular Report Directory here
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/consulate2/
(click on the link for the PDF) then you can see if there are any reports from your country on how long it took for a CLN to arrive.
Bear in mind too that recently they had a crash on the State Department’s computer which has caused backlogs for passports, visas, etc, and has probably affected the CLN side too, although this wasn’t mentioned.
Hang in there and if you need to rant some more, we’re here to listen and support you. I think we’ve all had frustrations over this whole issue at various times, so even if our circumstances are exactly the same as yours we certainly know how frustrating/depressing it can be when hurdles get thrown up unexpectedly just when we thought everything was going smoothly.
@UF:
A week or so ago a message board poster in Switzerland reported that he had just received the CLN, after a 4.5 month wait. As always, your mileage may vary.
@UtterlyFrustrated
I and many others here know exactly what you’re going through and empathize with your frustration. I wanted to respond to your post because I was in a very similar situation and may be able to give a helpful hint. I was also required to give up US citizenship before naturalizing, and was told at the US consulate that it would take 3-4 weeks. In the end, it took 4 months to receive my CLN. I was originally under the impression that I had to present the CLN before the naturalization process could be initiated. However, around 5 weeks after my renunciation, when it became clear that the CLN would not arrive soon, I contacted the person assigned to my case and explained the situation. As it turned out, it was sufficient to have had renounced and wasn’t necessary to actuallly present the CLN at that time. The naturalization process was initiated, and I just had to agree to present the CLN (with translation) when it arrives (which I did after 4 months). So, to make a long story short: you may be able to get things going now without having to wait for your CLN. Contact the officials and let them know you’ve already renounced!
@UtterlyFrustrated,
You asked, “What happens if my renunciation is not even approved?” The only reasons for denying a renunciation are if you seemed to the consul to be mentally unable to understand what you were doing, or if you were being forced to renounce against your will (pressure from family members, etc). Otherwise, the approval of your renunciation is pretty much a sure thing.
@ UtterlyFrustrated
Your situation shows just how little empathy (if any at all) that bureaucracies have for those they are supposed to be serving. I’m afraid that CLNs arrive with very little predictability. Some people receive them within a few weeks and others wait up to a year. As I understand it, your country’s citizenship is not official until you renounce and that means they won’t issue you a passport until you have proof of your renunciation. Meanwhile your U.S. passport is off getting cancelled at the State Dept. That is one helluva limbo to be in. Did the U.S. consulate give you any kind of proof that you renounced, like a receipt for the fee or an interim letter to explain your lack of a U.S. passport? My husband asked for and was given an interim letter when he relinquished but then here in Canada dual citizenship is legal so he had Canadian citizenship and a Canadian passport to travel on. The interim letter, BTW, said he was still considered to be a U.S. citizen until his CLN arrived (the letter would have allowed him entry to the USA if he had gone there) but when he got his CLN it dated his loss of nationality back to the date of his relinquishing act. Very confusing. I wish I had some words of wisdom for you but you may have to wait until the Canadian Brockers wake up and begin their day’s commenting. Mostly I just want to say welcome and that I hope you get out of that state of limbo soon. It’s utterly unfair that you have to put your life on hold until you have a CLN in your hand. You would think your country would have a smoother way to handle the transition period, maybe even a short term temporary passport to be exchanged later for the permanent one.
There now. While I was slowly typing, Euro Brockers were coming up with words of wisdom for you UtterlyFrustrated. At least you know you aren’t alone. Hang in there!
@ UtterlyFrustrated
I believe some of the Canadian Brockers have email or telephone links to the various State depts where the various CLN’s are approved (depending on the part of the world where you are situated).
Hopefully once they are awake they can give you the info.
You may be able to contact them and explain the situation and maybe hurry it along. Some have had success in this way.
@ UtterlyFrustrated
Sorry to hear about your terrible situation. It sounds like the rules of naturalisation in your country are somewhat similar to what they are here in Japan, with some key differences. In Japan a person must relinquish/renounce other nationalities prior to naturalisation if it is possible to immediately renounce that other nationality. Knowing that relinquishing US citizenship takes time and that the US very, very strongly discourages relinquishing/renouncing unless one already has another nationality, Japan allows 2 years from the time of naturalization to relinquish/renounce US citizenship. I’m surprised that your country does not have something similar.
Here are a few things you could try:
Contact the US embassy where you relinquished/renounced again and plead with them to put some pressure on Washington to get the CLN earlier. You can point out that the delay has left you stateless, which is agains Department of State policy and also against the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights Article 15. (1) “Everyone has the right to a nationality.”
In the meantime, you could ask if the embassy if they will allow you to keep your US passport until the CLN is approved (doubtful I think, but never hurts to ask).
Or, and this is the one I would try, you could ask the embassy to certify on their letterhead that you have submitted the required forms for relinquishing/renouncing and merely awaiting formal approval and take that to the authority in your country and request finalisation of your naturalisation. As suggested by NotAmused above, this might be completely sufficient. One again you can point out to both the embassy and your new country that you have been rendered stateless.
Finally, for emergency travel, you could enquire about a travel permit. Some (maybe even most) countries have a one-time travel permit to enable stateless persons who are legal residents to travel abroad and return.
And as Medea Fleecestealer suggested, you should read up on some others’ experiences in the Consular Report Directory.
Good luck.
@Utterly Frustrated
Agree with Tokyo Rose statement, it’s worth a try.
“In the meantime, you could ask if the embassy if they will allow you to keep your US passport until the CLN is approved (doubtful I think, but never hurts to ask).”
I know of one person who renounced at the embassy in Luxembourg who was told to keep his US passport until the CLN arrived and also told he should use it until then to travel. When the CLN arrived at the embassy he would then need to then forfeit the passport.
It seems every embassy is a law unto itself.
Please help with guidance on the following situation:
1.currently still a US citizen
2. new Canadian citizen this year
3. unaware of US tax filing requirements up until now
4. no income ever
5. TFSA greater than 10,000
What is the best approach to square things with IRS and avoid any IRS penalties, and get rid of the US citizenship for good?
Thank you for any help!
@Bewildered But Determined, welcome.
1. You have two choices. You can either relinquish, stating that you obtained your Canadian citizenship with the intention of losing your American one, or you can simply renounce. Relinquishng will save you $450. The ways you can lose your citizenship are outlined here:
http://travel.state.gov/content/travel/english/legal-considerations/us-citizenship-laws-policies/citizenship-and-dual-nationality.html
You would need to fill in one of these:
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/97025.pdf
which helps the consular staff determine your US status.
In addition to that, you’ll be asked to fill in and eventually sign the following documents:
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/81606.pdf
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/81607.pdf
3/4/5. This isn’t necessarily a problem. I was the same as I have no income and only needed to fle FBAR’s for my “foreign” accounts as I used the Streamlined program to do the necessary filing. But I’m sure others will be able to advise you more on this as I don’t know how your TFSA is affected.
@EmBee, I love the new term “Euro Brockers”
And you know…..The sun never sets on the Isaac Brock Society. 😉