Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
And Toronto Consulate uses DS 4079
The Calgary consulate did not use use the Form 4079 for relinquishment last year, but they do now (Feb through April, at least). Also, they require all the forms be submitted before they give you an appointment date. Last year, you got the date first and they just asked that you submit the forms before the appointment.
@tdott @anyone – does anyone know how long Vancouver is taking to make appointments to renounce? Planning my new year celebration…
DM,
Someone else might have information regarding timing for renunciation appointments at the Vancouver US Consulate.
In the meantime, here is information regarding appointments at the Toronto US Consulate: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/renunciation/comment-page-125/#comment-2454662
AND
Read from here: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2014/08/01/must-listen-interview-with-sencarllevin-corporate-inversions-renouncing-citizenship/comment-page-1/#comment-2462899 for discussion on Department of State database crash and speculation on how it might impact Consulate appointments for expatriations and/or slowing down process for receiving CLNs.
@CanadianGirl
What an interesting set of guesses you have received in replies so far. Here are mine.
You were already a Canadian citizen in 1985 when you took that oath. It is absolutely clear in 7 FAM 1250 that this oath is meaningless in terms of a relinquishing act because you were already a citizen and the oath did not grant you any new rights.
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/120544.pdf
If you look at the list of expatriating acts in INA 349, they can all easily be recognized as actions that we can imagine the US would consider “un-American”. Prior to 1986, they took away your USC against your will for these acts, no questions asked. The Supreme Court took that power away form Congress (the law makers) in 1986. However, all the mentioned un-American acts still remain in the law if you choose to perform them voluntarily with the intent to relinquish.
Look at two of them: “engaged in hostilities against the United States”, and “committing any act of treason against the United States”. These are clearly threats against the US. Why is being a CO or NCO in the military a threat to them? Well, my guess is that a CO/NCO has the potential to give orders that threaten the US?
Do you think the US considers a CO in a cadet organization, who supervises a bunch of teenagers one evening a week and during summer training courses, as a threat to the US? Your own guess is as good as any that you’ll get here. My guess would be based on this quote from INA 349(a)(3): “entering, or serving in, the armed forces of a foreign state”, and this statement from the Canadian Cadet FAQ: “Cadets are not members of the Canadian Armed Forces”.
If you choose to give it a try, I’d strongly recommend you do not try at the consulate in Calgary.
@Molly asked if we think the consuls read this website and if posting here is a problem. @Calgary411 replied that we have nothing to hide. If the consul reads this post, I think @CanadianGirl’s chances of success with this claim will be reduced. If what I have written is correct, was I wrong to post it? If I’m wrong, then others will set us straight and she will have counter-arguments if she pursues the claim and the consul tries to deny it as not being a valid case of “serving in the armed forces of a foreign state”.
Also keep in mind that everything I’ve seen says that you have to have had the knowledge and intent at the time of the action that you were relinquishing USC, even though the action was pre-1986 when you would have lost USC even against your will. People argue, “But it was the law at the time”. The DoS doesn’t seem to have to follow their own (past) laws, possibly (my guess) because the laws were later declared unconstitutional and they think they are doing you a favour by protecting and guaranteeing your US citizenship rights, even retroactively for law changes in 1978 that were not retroactive. For example, INA 350 (7 FAM 1230 APPENDIX C).
I have it on good authority that Toronto is indeed booking into January 2015, and doesn’t have all that many slots left. I wonder how many renunciations they accept per month?
I still think they need to install a drive through.
@WhatAmI
All interesting points for me to consider. One moment I think all will be fine and the next I’m confused again. Such is the nature of this beastly FATCA issue I suppose.
You are most correct in pointing out that “cadets are not members of the Armed Forces”. “Cadets” are youths between the age of 12 and 18. However, the Instructors/Leaders that work with cadets are comprised of civilian instructors and also commissioned officers who are indeed members of the Armed Forces According to the website http://www.cadets.ca/en/leadership-team/cadet-instructor-cadre.page
I won’t be giving it a try in Calgary, but perhaps Toronto when the time comes and I have my service record in hand–and feel it time to seek “proof” that I relinquished by virtue of service in the Armed Forces of another country.
This whole thing makes me feel like just sticking my head in the sand.
@CanadianGirl,
Those clarifications are good news!
@CanadianGirl, there’s more here on the US’s stance on service in a foreign military.
http://travel.state.gov/content/travel/english/legal-considerations/us-citizenship-laws-policies/citizenship-and-dual-nationality/citizenship-and-foreign-military-service.html
And this also helps explain it.
https://www.legallanguage.com/legal-articles/lose-us-citizenship/
WhatAmI has valid points about the US’s determination to hang on to you regardless of what acts you’ve performed to prove you don’t want to be an American. All you can do is try for the relinquishment, providing as much documentation as you can that you intended your military service to be a relinquishing act, and hope they embassy/consulate staff agree with you. If they don’t you have two choices if you don’t want to bury your head in the sand – insist they send your file on to Washington for a final decision by the State Department or renounce your citizenship. The latter has possible US tax implications so you’d need to look into that before making a decision.
@ OddlyNamed
WOW and YIKES – – a wait of 5 months for an appointment at the Toronto Consulate? I booked mine (at Toronto) this past March and they gave me an appointment for mid-April (actually on “US Tax Day”). Now, at that point they said it would take about 9 months to get the CLN; I guess with the State Dept computer crash everything will be slowing down. Also, the quarterly name and shame list brought out today is shorter than is likely accurate. If the USG was a business (like Target or Walmart) it would loose a lot of customers with this kind of lousy service issue. I guess the USG gets what it pays for (referring to the reduction in funding + more responsibilities for the IRS and, perhaps, a not-well or not frequently-updated computer system at State)……
Questions about relinquishment:
1. Form 4079 says it expired on 12/31/2013. Has it been replaced?
2. The form says you should consult a lawyer. I became a Canadian in 1974, have letter from Consul General stating I would automatically lose my American citizenship when I became a Canadian, so I don’t think my claim for relinquishment is complex. Do I need a lawyer? If yes, any recommendations of someone in Ottawa?
3. Has anyone ever posted a completed Form 4079 (with personal data obscured) that could be used as a template?
4. Any information about wait times for appointments in Ottawa would be appreciated.
Thanks.
ProudCanadian,
Good for you for putting your hands on your letter from the Consul General stating that you would automatically lose your US citizenship when you became a Canadian. That’s what we were told in the decades prior. I was told that in 1975 but my many moves, divorce, record keeping, etc. were too sloppy, unlike yours. Your have a perfect case to CLAIM RELINQUISHMENT. No, you do not need a lawyer.
@ Proud Canadian,
That is super to have that letter.
The 4079 with the 2013 expiry date has been being used by quite a few consulates well into 2014. (I think the only update on the 4079 is the expiry date, btw, fwiw. At any rate, they’re very similar.)
However, if you e-mail Ottawa Embassy, they’ll send a reply with a link to the DS-4079 and other forms, with instructions on how to book an appointment, etc.; so, if you use that link, you’ll be sure of using the exact form they want.
Voyons recently did her relinquishment-based CLN application at Ottawa and wrote a very detailed report of several pages about her experience in the Consulate Report Directory at page 56. Her report also includes the text of the e-mail she received from Ottawa when she made her inquiry a couple of months ago.
Here’s a link to the expiry date 2017 DS-4079.
Ottawa wait times were a couple of weeks this Spring. Haven’t heard anything recently. Wait times seem to be really slowing down all over lately. But if Ottawa was that quick in the Spring, even if slower now, hopefully it won’t be outrageously long.
PC there is a bizarre reason why 4079 is so confusing. Originally it was used by people trying to keep or regain their citizenship after they had performed a potentially relinquishing act.
Now ,of course, it is used for precisely the opposite-people trying to show they meant to lose it. That’s why the questions seem so strange. State are too lazy or dumb to prepare a proper questionnaire. You don’t need a lawyer. Just fill it in with the mindset that you intended to relinquish.
@ BreakingSad
I haven’t been following your issues closely, but wanted to let you know that I (and lots of Brockers, I’m sure) can relate to your comment “Very difficult decision though.”
I was born in the US and moved here as an adult. 43 years later, after becoming a Cdn citizen in early 1990s, I went to renounce at the Toronto Consulate. Hubby & our 2 grown children had been in the process of doing the same over the earlier 2 years so it wasn’t a sudden thing; rather, it was very well planned at length and well thought out with professional help.
Yet, still, on the day of renunciation (and several weeks before and afterwards), I was an (unexpected) emotional roller-coaster. Citizenship is for most of us a really deep, intense thing and the US does not make it easy to go through the process of “breaking up”. But now, several months later, I am glad I pushed myself through that fog and did the deed. Now, I just have to await my CLN and do the last tax-filing next year.
Anyway, just wanted to send you a cyber-hug of encouragement. This too will pass……. 🙂
@Kalc, “Originally it was used by people trying to keep or regain their citizenship after they had performed a potentially relinquishing act. ”
Brilliant observation, so the form as used today is no longer fit for purpose.
The reality is if someone says they relinquished, once they see the document of the act they should process with no further questions.
@George, “Brilliant observation, so the form as used today is no longer fit for purpose.”
I would suggest a new, shorter form that simply says:
Do you want to relinquish US citizenship and do you understand the ramifications? Then sign here, witness there, date here, and have a great day and a beautiful future! And if you ever want to return to citizenship, contact us and we will work something out.
Now THAT would encourage many expatriates to celebrate the US rather than abhor it.
Update from Scandinavia – I renounced August 2013, received CLN May 2014, filed final tax forms 8854 Fbar etc in May 2014, and I am not yet on the Federal Registry list. Know one person renounced in another country in June 2013, received CLN in August 2013, was on Fed. Reg. list Feb. 2014. Two more I know of renounced in Scandinavia autumn of 2013 and have sent all final tax papers etc in May 2014, and are still waiting for a CLN.
Been meaning to come back here to thank all of you for all the help last week, but life got in the way. I’ve been reading all the comments, though, and learning so much.
I am still not 100% decided on what to do, but I have a lot more info to work with. I am dead sure I will be renouncing. When and how is what is to be decided. Still not sure on streamlined vs backfiling. My income is so low that I actually don’t have to file. Is there some way I can “prove” this and then be able to say I have met my obligations under the
88588854(I didn’t have to file, so I didn’t), or will I have to file even with the small amount as the way to prove that I met my obligations?@IsabellaG, I used the Streamlined program and had no income only FBAR’s to file. My tax preparer added an additional explanation to the Streamlined questionnaire that said “Although a streamlined questionnaire is being submitted, the taxpayer is not filing tax returns as she has no income to report.” Maybe you could add something similar if you go for Steamlined.
@ Medea
That is a possibility. (My income is not zero – it is small, with a bit from interest and dividends.) In that case, do I have to wait for some sort of “approval” of my streamlined filing to be able to say I met my financial obligations? (I am thinking of when I have to fill the
88588854 form.) Or is the mere act of filing enough?I am smarter than I was before, but still very, very confused. It does not help that I have limited time to devote to this nonsense. On the plus side, we have pushed up my son’s trip to Nov, so he still gets to go, and I can renounce anytime past that, and not wait until 2015. Once I have some idea what I want to do, I want to call and make the appt with the embassy.
@IsabellaG, well I haven’t had any approval, but filed my final FBAR and the 8854 form this year. The IRS doesn’t do “approvals” really. You send stuff in and it disappears down a big black hole as far as you’re concerned, unless they decide to do an audit. I think there is a way to track submissions IF you file actual tax returns, but of course I didn’t so that option wasn’t available to me.
@ Medea
Okay, now I’m officially confused. So you just fill out the tax documents, the 8854 etc and submit it into a void.
In one of your comments above to me (#2447630, so very helpful, I must add), you said
“Here in Switzerland the banks have also been asking for proof of tax compliancy by requesting copies of US tax filings or proof that you’ve entered the OVDP or Streamlined program. ….
The main thing is to be able to fill in the 8854 form to declare that you’ve met all your US tax obligations so won’t be considered a “covered expatriate”.”
So what is my “proof” of stuff like a) FBARs, b) tax filings, c) that I entered the Streamlined program; or d) that I filled in an 8854? If I don’t get anything back, or anything stamped, what’s to stop someone from filling in a fake 8854, say, not submitting it, but keeping a copy for “proof” if needed?
@IsabellaG and Medea F.
“So you just fill out the tax documents, the 8854 etc and submit it into a void.”
Yes, that’s it! Remember to keep copies of everything you send to IRS/Treasury. I sent everything via registered mail with track and trace – so I have proof that it was delivered. This cost quite a bit in postal fees, but since I did it was DIY work, I saved on accountants fees etc.I never heard back from either IRS or Treasury. When you file Fbars online at the Treasury website you get an immediate email confirmation. You can also backfile Fbars via the Treasury website. I did not do streamlined (since I had not heard of it when I filed the back years). Medea F was very helpful when I was in the midst of this horror scenario more than a year ago. Good luck to you, hello and thanks again to to Medea F.
@IsabellaG, yes as allou says if you have to post anything then send it registered mail so you can track its progress and delivery. I actually printed off copies of both the Swiss post tracker and the US post one too, same info of course, but I have two different sources to confirm that it was delivered.
I think it’s possible to print yourself a copy of your FBAR now they have to be file electronically; they’re done in Adobe Acrobat so you should be able to save and print them from your computer, but as you receive an e-mail in confirmation, again keep the e-mail in a folder where it don’t be deleted and print a copy off as well attaching it to the paper copy of the FBAR if you can print it off. Do the same with any other tax forms that you decide to file which are done online or make copies of the paper ones before you send them off. It’s not only useful for any proof you may need, but if there’s any query on what you’ve submitted being able see exactly what they’re talking about rather than trying to rely on memories is only sensible imho. These sort of documents are too important not to have copies of.
However, don’t worry too much about proving your compliancy. Do make copies, keep e-mails, etc, just in case, but I don’t think the Canadian banks will necessarily want this info. Remember that the Swiss banks have been hit hard by the US justice system in recent years and they are liable for big penalties under the Swiss IGA iirc and are also having to go back as far as 2008 accounts, which I don’t think is the same for the Canadian one. So they are trying to make sure all their clients are compliant to reduce those penalties as much as they can. Canadian banks haven’t felt the US’s wrath so they’re not in the same state of panic. I’m not saying they won’t eventually want to dig that far down, but I think it’s unlikely. Switzerland has been a bit of an extreme case for Americans with accounts abroad.
I was asked by PostFinance to prove my US tax status as I hadn’t told them of my renunciation. I sent them a copy of my CLN and the Streamlined questionnaire and told them if they wanted copies of the FBAR’s I’d sent with it they could have them. But that seems to have been enough as they just sent back the W-8EN forms for myself and my husband to sign. If I’d told them about the renunciation as soon as I’d done it, as I did with UBS, then I probably wouldn’t have needed to send them the questionnaire.