Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@calgary411
That’s why I generally would suggest that those who are not in the “US system” in any way, shape, or form so far–ie no passport ever, no SSN, etc–stay completely out of the “US system” and refuse to let anyone define them as a “US person”.
I still wonder what happens if someone is in a position where they can neither prove for sure that they ARE a US citizen nor prove that they aren’t.
@calgary411
“Using the US Passport to Collect Unpaid Taxes
The IRS is very aware of the potential for using the US passport as an effective means of increasing the collection of unpaid US taxes. The Government Accountability Office (GAO) issued a report to Congress on this very matter. It noted that a significant amount of unpaid federal taxes owed by individuals who were issued a US passport within the past four years had been outstanding for several years. The report urged that Congress consider legislation using the US passport as an enforcement tool in helping generate substantial collections of unpaid federal taxes and to increase tax compliance. The GAO Report can be accessed here (Gov’t Accountability Office Report of March 2011).
Don’t Be Complacent! IRS and State Department Are Linked and Proposals Have Been Made to Deny Issuance or Revoke US Passport for Tax Debts
Currently, the citizenship functions of the US Department of State are separate and very distinct from the revenue functions of the US Department of the Treasury and the IRS. We are seeing a continuous erosion of this separation of functions, however. For example, the US passport renewal form mandates that the applicant supply his Social Security Number (SSN) if he has one. This is authorized by Internal Revenue Code Section 6039E, enacted in 1986. The legislative history to that section makes clear that over 25 years ago Congress was aware that US persons residing overseas were not filing US tax returns even though required to do so. Congress intended to increase tax compliance of US citizens living outside the United States through its enactment of this tax provision. A $500 penalty applies for failure of a passport applicant to provide the SSN, unless reasonable cause can be established. In addition, the State Department MUST turn over to the IRS some damning information from the application – the statute mandates that it must provide your SSN and foreign residence information to the Department of Treasury. If you refuse to submit the SSN, the State Department MUST still provide your identifying information to the IRS indicating you have refused to give the information. So, you lose either way – whether you reveal your SSN on the passport form or refuse to do so, the IRS will be made aware of you and can commence its investigation into your tax compliance history. While we do not know precisely what the IRS will do with this information, it does not take much imagination to think that any US person with a passport will now automatically appear on the IRS radar screen. Given the growing trend of international tax enforcement, it is possible that US citizens who have not been tax compliant may face travel or passport difficulties.
In a similar vein, in March 2013, Senator Reid introduced a proposal that would allow the IRS to instruct the State Department to cancel, or not renew, or not issue a US passport to any individual who owes more than $50,000 in taxes to the US Treasury. Even though the proposal was not ultimately adopted, it had been approved by the Senate in April 2013 and may indicate a future trend.”
http://blogs.angloinfo.com/us-tax/2013/12/16/learn-the-real-facts-unresolved-us-tax-liabilities-re-entry-to-usa-renewal-or-revocation-of-your-us-passport/
Your details will reach the IRS one way or another.
Thanks, Medea, for highlighting that Virginia La Torre Jeker, J.D., blog entry again. She has lots of good information on that blog!
***********************
Other Uses of Social Security Numbers (from U.S. Department of State APPLICATION FOR ADDITIONAL VISA PAGES) http://01f5730.netsolhost.com/images/passportforms/ds4085.pdf
Lets not overlook how US citizens are now duly informed of their tax filing obligations within the passport book itself – on the last page in mouse type.
@Bubblebustin, yes and that’s only fairly recently. My last US passport (2007 renewal) had it in, but the previous two don’t. And who bothers with the last page anyway? All applicants are interested in is that they’ve got the personal details right. I doubt anyone looks at the other pages.
Thanks for the replies earlier.
I have done a ton of reading the last few days, this site and a couple others mentioned have been a fantastic resource.
For my situation, this is how I see it:
(1) Try to relinquish
(2) If I “they” turn down my relinquishment, I will use the streamlining process to get compliant asap, file for the next 2 more years after that – then finally renounce. I see this as the only option as eventually I will have to open additional financial accounts in Canada down the road. I would rather go through some short term pain and get the monkey off my back for the rest of my life.
@HonestCanadian, there’s nothing to stop you adding more years to the 3 required by the Streamlined process, i.e. file 2012 to 2014, but also include 2011 and 2010 too to give you 5 years filing as required for the 8854.
What Medea Fleecestealer just said is in fact my plan. I’m staying out of Streamlined (there are some very interesting articles on the web that make Streamlined sound rather dangerous; namely the whole “certifying nonwilfull” part), going with Quiet Disclosure, 5 years of tax returns, 6 years of FBARs, and then renouncing.
The only problem now is getting a SSN and an appointment at the Consulate. Apparently they’re rather backed up, so I’m trying to find out how long that is expected to take.
I have not read a lot about the QD process. What is the benefit of choosing that over the SL process?
@OddlyNamed
Some people prepare their logic and “talking points” for a relinquishment as Plan A. If the fine folk at the consulate don’t think that the relinquishing logic is correct, then immediately these quick-thinking relinquishers switch to Plan B and state that they then wish to renounce and whip out their $450.
After all, having thought that they had already relinquished and are simply informing the State Dept., they don’t need to think about all the neat stuff they will be losing if they renounce US citizenship. (And this is not the time to blast those possibly patriotic souls at the consulate with what they think of the US if it irritates them a bit.) They have already adjusted to the idea and want to get on with it. The idea is to avoid having to get another appointment.
You can relinquish/renounce without having dealt with all of the IRS filing. All of the IRS filing can be done after the appointment, be the result a relinquishment or a renunciation underway. It will ordinarily take months before the CLN arrives and until then you can’t proceed with the 8854 since you have to know your ultimate status.
If it will take months to get an appointment, that also gives you time to start working you way through all of the back filing, what ever way you choose to deal with it.
@OddlyName, HonestCanadian these two links will tell you more:
http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/Streamlined-Filing-Compliance-Procedures
http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/U-S-Taxpayers-Residing-Outside-the-United-States
As far as the quiet disclosure goes, read this:
“Q10. What if the taxpayer has already filed amended returns reporting the additional unreported income, without making a voluntary disclosure (i.e., quiet disclosure)?
A10. The IRS is aware that some taxpayers have attempted so-called “quiet” disclosures by filing amended returns and paying any related tax and interest for previously unreported offshore income without otherwise notifying the IRS. Taxpayers who have already made “quiet” disclosures may take advantage of the penalty framework applicable to voluntary disclosure requests regarding unreported offshore accounts and entities. Those taxpayers must send previously submitted documents, including copies of amended returns, to their local CI office by September 23, 2009. (See Q&A 5).
Taxpayers are strongly encouraged to come forward under the Voluntary Disclosure Practice to make timely, accurate, and complete disclosures. Those taxpayers making “quiet” disclosures should be aware of the risk of being examined and potentially criminally prosecuted for all applicable years.
The IRS has identified, and will continue to identify, amended tax returns reporting increases in income. The IRS will be closely reviewing these returns to determine whether enforcement action is appropriate.”
http://www.irs.gov/uac/Voluntary-Disclosure:-Questions-and-Answers
With the Streamlined as far as I can see by certifying you were non-wilfully non-compliant, you’re saying you didn’t realise you should file while a quiet disclosure could lead to the assumption that you were wilfully non-compliant and are now trying to get out of any possible criminal prosecution.
Then of course you have the expanded Streamlined/Voluntary Disclosure program which has only just come into force in July this year.
http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/Offshore-Voluntary-Disclosure-Program-Frequently-Asked-Questions-and-Answers-2012-Revised
Hi, all…..I’ve been absent from this site for a while for various reasons — one being that I wonder if staff from consulate offices are monitoring the comments here. What do others think?
Molly,
Welcome back.
I hope they are. We have nothing to hide. They should know that their lack of standard operating procedures one consulate to another and lack of straight answers on citizenship issues is obfuscation.
It is worth noting that quiet disclosure does indeed not bring you into full compliance from the IRS vantage point. That isn’t my goal. My goal is to become compliant for the last 5 years simply so that I can complete the renunciation.
As regards the dangers of Streamlined, especially regarding the risk of certifying nonwillfulness, Jack Townsend has an unnerving article here: http://federaltaxcrimes.blogspot.ca/2014/06/good-article-on-non-willfulness.html
If I wanted to remain a USC, I would go Streamlined as I do qualify for it. Given that I’m just looking to certify 5 year compliance for renunciations, I’m using the “go forward” strategy with a bit of going backwards first.
In looking for some information about filling in the DS 4079 (renunciation document), I found an interesting document online: the “U.S. Department of State Foreign Affairs Manual Volume 7 Consular Affairs”, and it contains a set of instructions to the consular officers on how to handle renunciations.
Very interesting read. Includes statements like “You should, however, report any contemporaneous statements made by a would-be renunciant that alter the meaning of the renunciation or call into question the individual’s intent to renounce citizenship. The Department is unlikely to approve a CLN in such a case.”
So, don’t take it as an opportunity to rant.
Or how about: “You must keep a detailed written record of every interaction with the renunciant, and, following the renunciation, must provide a signed Consular Officer’s Opinion to CA/OCS/ACS. This opinion should include the consular officer’s assessment of the renunciant’s state of mind and the reasons given, if any, for desiring to renounce. Such opinions might note if there appeared to be family pressure to renounce, if the individual was likely renouncing for tax purposes, etc. The opinion should also note if the renunciant displays animosity or has spoken threateningly towards the United States.”
Some good guidance here for renunciants. You can find the whole document here: http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/115645.pdf
@OddlyNamed, technically a DS 4079 isn’t needed for a renunciation. It should only used by consular staff to help them determine if someone has relinquished. There is nothing for them to “determine” for a renunciation. You are simply exercising your right under US law to give up your citizenship by going to the embassy/consulate and taking the Oath in front of the Consul.
http://travel.state.gov/content/travel/english/legal-considerations/us-citizenship-laws-policies/renunciation-of-citizenship.html
These are the only documents needed to renounce – the Oath and the Statement of Understanding.
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/81606.pdf
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/81607.pdf
All the questions on the DS 4079 regarding passport use, tax, voting, etc, mean nothing for a renunciation, even if you’ve done them right up to the day before you go to the embassy/consulate.
Most embassies/consulates don’t use the DS 4079 for renuncations, although there have been reports in the past on IBS of some doing so. Whether any still do I don’t know.
It’s simply sloppy use of the words “relinquishment” and “renunciation” in US documentation which gives the impression that they’re one and the same thing when quite clearly they’re not.
Its my first time weighing in here. Here is my situation:
-Born in USA in September 1965 to two Canadian parents in the US on a temporary work assignment.
-Returned to Canada at two months old
-Parents registered my birth in Canada in January of 1966 and I have a Certificate of Registration if Birth Abroad and have consequently never even imagined I could be a US citizen.
-Lived and worked my whole life in Canada, not a single tie to the US. No relatives there, no property ever owned, no US passport, never voted in the US
Presuming that the US would still consider me a citizen, I do have a possible relinquishing act performed prior to 1986 when the “with intent” to relinquish rule took effect.
In 1985 I became an officer with the Cadet Organization (a youth program funded by Department of National Defence). As an officer I received an official commission with the Canadian Armed Forces, the exact same commission as regular officers in the Navy would receive. I had to swear an oath of allegience (my expatriating act in 1985).
I left the organization many years ago and have no record of my time spent there anymore. Have written to DND to obtain a service record and hoping that they haven’t destroyed such records and will provide it to me.
Am I for sure a US citizen? Also if I am, and once I have my service record, does relinquishment backdated to 1985 sound feasible? If I can’t get that record, would simply declaring that information on the application for a CLN be sufficient or do you think they will demand that proof?
@CanadianGirl, yes, yes and no to answer your questions.
You were born in the States, therefore you’re a citizen. Yes, you can try and claim a relinquishment based on your Canadian military Service, but they’re not going to just take your word for it. You’ll need proof of your service records. A relinquishment backdated to 1985 is perfectly feasible if you can provide the necessary proof of your relinquishing act.
It may help to read through this too:
http://maplesandbox.ca/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Synopisis-Ricardson-London-Ontario.pdf
it’ll get you started on your journey to become an ex-US citizen.
I figured as much (about being a US citizen)
I have faxed a request to the DND archive library in Ottawa and I read that it could take up to six months to get a response. I hope that in 6 months time they send me the required information and that it won’t be a case of the records being destroyed.
Thanks for the link to the post at maplesandbox. I suppose my only course of action at the moment will be to continue reading and researching while I await my service record.
@CanadianGirl, yes, research, research, research. There’s plenty of info here on the site to help you understand all the ramifications of your decisions. It never pays to rush into anything. Do your homework and make sure you understand everything. We’re here to support you and answer any questions you have so don’t think you’re going this alone because you’re not.
You might like to read up on other peoples’ experiences with the various embassies/consulates in Canada so you have a better idea of what to expect.
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Consulate-Report-Directory-2014.07.04.j.pdf
It includes relinquishments and renunications so you can get a feel for the processes involved.
Vancouver uses it.
Canadian Girl. It is perfectly reasonable to argue that you are no longer an American citizen. Check the link to the right on Dep’t of State forms and Manuals and go to 7FAM 1250 &1270.
Basically if you made an oath to a ‘foreign state’ or join the armed forces of a ‘foreign state’ , with the intent to lose US citizenship, then you lost it and ARE NO LONGER a US citizen.
It’s helpful that you were over 18 at the time because before that age you would be judged incompetent to make such a momentous decision.
Intent is a state of mind that is difficult to pin down. So they use indirect indicators of intent. Not living there, not owning property, not voting, not registering children as US citizens, not having a Social security no, not having a US passport, and not filing US taxes are all valid indications that you intended to lose US citizenship.
Be careful not to do any of those things.
In summary, you are not a US citizen. All that remains for you to do is to inform them of that fact. You relinquished in 1986! Lucky you. Bonne chance! Remember to donate to ADCS!
Most of the consulates in Canada seem to still use the 4079 for renunciation (I think maybe Calgary doesn’t???). A consulate has the option of using the 4079 or not for renunciations. 7 FAM 1264 (b), though it’s always required for claims based on a previous relinquishing act. 7 FAM 1220. You can e-mail your local consulate to find out what forms and documents they’ll require. (You can also get some idea of this from people’s reports in the Consulate Report Directory, but to be certain contact the consulate anyway, as even at a particular consulate, things can change over time.)
Thanks, KalC for your words of wisdom. It’s my understanding that since I made the oath in 1985 that I didn’t even need to have “intent”. I am most relieved that I was over 18 as you mentioned. And no worries….I have no intention of ever doing anything to Americanize myself. I think that, for future sense of comfort, I will seek a CLN to have on hand.
Intent is important. Google Vance V terrazas. There will be a wikipedia entry. That was a USSC decision that prevented the state department from taking away US citizenship unless there was concomitant intent.