Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@Medea Fleecestealer and @Sasha.
Unless the US has changed it’s policy over the years, registration of a birth abroad at the US consulate has nothing to do with having a Social Security number. in 1969 and 1971 we registered the birth of our children born in Canada. A few years later, after an inheritance, we decided to set up a trust for their future education with all earnings being taxed in their hands. It was only then that we established a social security number for them (so we could fill in tax forms in their names).
Now, newer renewal applications for passports may require SSNs, I don’t know (now renounced and my previous US passport was from the mid-2000s. If you live in Canada, it is easy to phone the SS offices in side the US along the border (you can call any of these from Buffalo to Seattle!) and ask them. Another place to call and ask is the Philadelphia IRS office which deals with expat filings and querries. If you will be visiting the US in the near future, you could make an appointment to see someone at the office in the city where you will be travelling; my understanding is that you may have to be inside the US to obtain a SSN. Good luck.
HC was likely not a Canadian birth registered abroad. I was, registered in 67. I’ve had to carry the certificate all of my life, well…until I received my first passport (Cdn)…in order to prove I was Cdn when coming back to Canada after going into the US.
HC would not have a reason to take an oath at 13 if he was a Cdn registered birth abroad, unless his parents expected him to live in a country other than Canada when he was 24.
The back of my certificate says:
“Section 5 of the Canadian Citizenship Act provides that a person born outside of Canada after January 1, 1947, shall cease to be a Canadian citizen upon the date of the expiration of three years after the date on which he attains the age of 21 years unless he:
(a) has his PLACE OF DOMICILE in Canada at such date; or
(b) has, before such date and after attaining the age of 21 years, filed a Declaration of Retention of Canadian Citizenship with the Registrar of Canadian Citizenship, Ottawa, Canada.”
Considering Citizenship and Immigration would not allow me to “apply” for citizenship, and had no process for me to “declare” my citizenship in 2013, I would imagine HC was not registered in Canada as a birth abroad before age 2. If he had been, they shouldn’t have had a process for him to “take or declare” Cdn citizenship at 13.
@The Mom
I’ll write more later when I’m at home and not on a mobile device with limited bandwidth.
But the verbiage on the back of the CRBA, while valid in its time, became completely moot with the passage of Canada’s 1977 citizenship law.
@ Bubblebustin
Gee, I wonder if I have the right to claim CA citizenship! (Not that I would, since I just completed the laborious process of naturalisation in Japan last year after living here for more than 35 years, but it is interesting nonetheless.)
All 4 of my grandparents were originally CA, but naturalised to US (or so it is believed, the only documentation is for my paternal grandfather’s naturalisation in 1890). Then my father was born in Alberta in 1901 (on some very extended return to CA). No birth certificate, just a baptismal certificate (“the son of xxs, a farmer, and xxx, his wife, both of this parish”). Birth never even registered with the US. In later years, my father’s “proof” of US citizenship was his father’s US naturalisation certificate and a letter from the town clerk in the US in 1924 stating that he had been a “resident for 12 years and a registered voter for 2 years”.
Simpler times I guess.
@LM, what I was wondering was whether the parents may have applied for an SSN at the same time as registering the birth abroad for US tax purposes. I also wasn’t sure if it had become an automatic thing when a baby was born, but that doesn’t seem to be the case.
http://ssa.gov/pubs/EN-05-10023.pdf
But if the parents knew they were supposed to be filing US tax returns it’s possible they applied for an SSN, assuming they could claim any child deductions/benefits when living outside the US. Unlikely I know, considering how many of us have been scrabbling to get our tax sorted out, but some people may have been told or found out before the US started pushing the info out there.
Considering the hassle you have to go through to get one, it’s worth a call to check beforehand I’d say.
@HonestCanadian, I’d say no, relinquishing it’s possible. a) you were born in the States and b) even if you claimed your Canadian citizenship at 13, it’s too young to be recognised as a relinquishing act by the US. It’s quite clear in the law itself:
Potentially Expatriating Acts
Section 349 of the INA (8 U.S.C. 1481), as amended, states that U.S. nationals are subject to loss of nationality if they perform certain specified acts voluntarily and with the intention to relinquish U.S. nationality. Briefly stated, these acts include:
1.obtaining naturalization in a foreign state upon one’s own application after the age of 18 (Sec. 349 (a) (1) INA);
http://travel.state.gov/content/travel/english/legal-considerations/us-citizenship-laws-policies/citizenship-and-dual-nationality.html
You are a dual citizen, whether Canadian from birth or your act of claiming Canadian citizenship, so renouncing is the only possibility as you were too young to commit an expatriating act under the law.
@Medea Fleecestealer and @Sasha
But regarding what Sasha said:
“I applied for & received a U.S. passport as an adult (dual citizen, born in Canada to a U.S. mother), but was not asked for a SSN and have always assumed that I do not have one. … Is it possible that I got my US passport without having a SSN? ”
The current rules state:
“Section 6039E of the Internal Revenue Code (26 U.S.C. 6039E) requires you to provide your Social Security number (SSN), if you have one, when you apply for or renew a U.S. passport. If you have not been issued a SSN, enter zeros in box #5 of this form. ”
I don’t know when this rule came into effect, but if she is referring to having obtained a US passport relatively recently, it is not possible that she “was not asked for a SSN”. It is possible, however, that she “got my US passport without having a SSN”.
Maybe more pertinent to her question is that I find it difficult to believe that the location at which she applied for her passport automatically referenced a possible SSN from her birth without her supplying it.
I have heard rumours that some consulates force people who do not have an SS No. to apply for one when applying for or renewing a US passport, but that is not correct. As in everything else, the IRS is trying to make their rules override all others.
@Honest Canadian, I am going to take a contrary viewpoint to what some fellow Brockers have respectfully written. This may assist you but it is also a reminder for others in unique situations.
The question at hand is if you in fact relinquished US Nationality at the age of 13?
Your actions since the age of 13 seem to clearly indicate that you had in fact given up any claim to US Nationality, which is good.
Our fellow Brockers sometimes forget that you must apply the law as it existed at the time of the action. Let me repeat, the law today does not apply to the law yesterday. You must apply BOTH US and Canadian Law as of the date of your relinquishment.
With respect to the US, you need to examine 8 US Code. A link to the law is as follows;
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1481
But in your case that is the law as it exists today, so you have to click the tab that says Notes to see how the Code was amended over the years. The question at hand is when age 18 was written into the code?
From the notes tab, we learn that prior to “1986” age 18 was NOT a factor. But when in 1986? Thanks to google, we have the public law making this change in November 14, 1986.
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/STATUTE-100/pdf/STATUTE-100-Pg3655.pdf
I am going to assume that you officially became a Canadian prior to November 14, 1986.
At this point you literally need to cut and paste to reverse engineer what 8 US Code said prior to that date;
Here is the code section THEN;
——-
8 USC pre November 1986
(a) A person who is a national of the United States whether by birth or naturalization, shall lose his nationality by voluntarily performing any of the following acts with the intention of relinquishing United States nationality—
(1) obtaining naturalization in a foreign state upon his own application or upon an application filed in his behalf by a parent, guardian, or duly authorized agent, or through the naturalization of a parent having legal custody of such person: Provided That nationality shall not be lost by any person under this section as the result of the naturalization of a parent or parents while such person is under the age of twenty-one years, or as the result of a naturalization obtained on behalf of a person under twenty-one years of age by a parent, guardian, or duly authorized agent, unless such person shall fail to enter the United States to establish a permanent residence prior to his twenty-fifth birthday: And provided further, That a person who shall have lost nationality prior to January 1, 1948, through the naturalization in a foreign state of a parent or parents, may, within one year from the effective date of this chapter, apply for a visa and for admission to the United States as a special immigrant under the provisions of section 1101 (a)(27)(E) of this title; or
(2) taking an oath or making an affirmation or other formal declaration of allegiance to a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof; or
———-
@Honest Canadian PART 2
It is important that you request your full Canadian Citizenship file to see what exactly you have.
You will need to pay attention o the following;
1. Does it refer to naturalisation or registration of citizenship? That should NOT make a difference and I say that strongly because I have actually sighted a US Department of State manual which states in their eyes that registration is synonymous with naturalisation. BUT what you must not have is simply a registration of Canadian birth abroad.
The key factor is that your status in Canada must have changed from before the filing until after the filing.
I am also assuming you did not have a Canadian Passport in your name prior to that date.
2. Who signed the application? Probably best of you signed but from the law prior to 11-86 thats not a deal breaker.
3. The forms will hopefully quote some sections of Canadian law that you can research for meaning as of that date. Also the forms might explain under penalties of law what exactly you were doing.
More to follow
@Honest Canadian PART 3
You now also need to determine what was the law in Canada on that date you filed forms.
I am not Canadian but if I recall, dual nationality was not tolerated. Others and/or google will be able to help in that regard.
But I do know that Canada “denounced” in ?1998? the “CONVENTION ON CERTAIN QUESTIONS RELATING TO THE CONFLICT OF NATIONALITY LAWS THE HAGUE – 12 APRIL 1930” which I am guessing is when Canada became “tolerant” of dual nationality.
@Honest Canadian PART 4
The stars may be lining up for you but the tires are going to hit the road.
1.) In order to have relinquished at 13, you must have done so voluntarily and with the intention to do so.
I take note that under current US Law 8 US Code that there is NO age requirement to renounce US Citizenship. However I also take note that a Consulate will have a high bar for anyone that is not 18.
So yes, there is a discrepancy in the US Law that you can renounce at 16 but can not relinquish at 16!!
I use 16 as an example as there are some countries in which a 16 year old can naturalise.
So what do you need to do IF that was your state of mind at the time?
If a parent is still alive, would they be willing to swear an affadavit to that effect with a Canadian lawyer? Would they swear that you were of the age and ability to fully understand what you were doing?
Are you willing to swear an affadavit to that affect with a Canadian lawyer?
While the above should suffice, do you have any old school records that show you were a keen young man who would clearly have had the ability to discern such decision?
Do you have contact with any old teachers or maybe a doctor who would swear in an affadavit that you were able to make such a decision?
@Honest Canadian PART 5
I am assuming you now have gotten to a large document file with old records and now affidavits.
The key was if at age 13, you fully understood you were a US Citizen, you wanted to lose your US Citizenship in becoming Canadian, that you were not Canadian before hand and that US and Canadian Law at the time permitted all this!
IF you did not think you were losing your US Citizenship or you did not want to lose it then you did NOT relinquish. Thats why you, parents, friends, siblings…..likely need to swear an affadavit before a Lawyer or Notary.
Decision time……………………
If you have relinquished prior to 1986 at age 13 and you are satisfied with your file what do you do next?
The CRA under the IGA and their guidance only requires that you provide a satisfactory explanation as to how you lost your citizenship. You do now have a file with the records, the law then and all else….
You can stop right there or you can apply with the Consulate and attempt to get a backdated CLN.
No matter how much documentation anyone has, the Department of State can refuse a relinquishment even if it appears rock solid. You then can appeal…..
So do you remain an Undocumented Relinquisher (UR) or do you become a Documented Relinquisher w/CLN.
The face value reading of the information promulgated by your CRA indicates a well documented personal file should suffice there can be a need to have a backdated CLN.
I think everyone MUST assume that a CLN can/will be required to enter the US on a “foreign” passport w/US Place of Birth. If you elect to remain an UR then you can not plan guaranteed entry to the US ever again.
If you are an undocumented relinquisher you must assume that you are permanently exiled from the US.
Some can do this. Some are thrilled to do this. Some just can not do this.
@George
“Does it refer to naturalisation or registration of citizenship? That should NOT make a difference and I say that strongly because I have actually sighted a US Department of State manual which states in their eyes that registration is synonymous with naturalisation. BUT what you must not have is simply a registration of Canadian birth abroad.”
I’m not aware of any kind of “registration” of Canadian citizenship other than registration of a Canadian citizen born abroad.
@George
“I think everyone MUST assume that a CLN can/will be required to enter the US on a “foreign” passport w/US Place of Birth. ”
Which is why the option of an Enhanced Driver’s License (EDL) should be at least seriously considered for a Canadian in this situation who resides in a province that issues the EDL.
@George
“IF you did not think you were losing your US Citizenship or you did not want to lose it then you did NOT relinquish. Thats why you, parents, friends, siblings…..likely need to swear an affadavit before a Lawyer or Notary.”
If he didn’t relinquish then he didn’t relinquish. IMHO a better solution than making questionable claims under oath before a lawyer or notary is simply to refuse to acknowledge in any way, shape, or form that he ever had US citizenship in the first place.
@The Mom
“Considering Citizenship and Immigration would not allow me to “apply” for citizenship, and had no process for me to “declare” my citizenship in 2013, I would imagine HC was not registered in Canada as a birth abroad before age 2. If he had been, they shouldn’t have had a process for him to “take or declare” Cdn citizenship at 13.”
It is a bit unclear to me exactly what happened with HC at age 13. Either he was registered as a birth abroad or his parents sponsored him to immigrate to Canada. In the latter case the process–including obtaining Canadian citizenship–could have been completed long before age 13. In the former case it is unclear what event exactly triggered something of note to happen at age 13. I remain a bit confused.
The loss of Canadian citizenship at age 24 thing happened under the pre-1977 law but only for those who turned 24 before 1977. HC wouldn’t have turned 13 until some time in the 1980’s. The old law was already obsolete by that point and presumably wouldn’t have affected his or his parents’ decisions.
@Dash, some Commonwealth (current/former/special case) Countries provide for Naturalisation or Registration of Citizenship.
One example, if you have an Irish Grandparent you may Register to become an Irish Citizen even if you never set foot in Ireland. You become a citizen the date of registration not retroactive to birth.
I have direct knowledge that Registration as an Irish Citizen is an expatriating event if done with the intention of expatriation.
Registration of Citizenship typically requires a “connection” by blood to the country. But it often requires no or little residence. This is often considered or termed as an entitlement.
Naturalisation on the other hand typically requires a period of residence and no other connection by blood. It is a “true outsider” become a national.
A Registration of Birth Abroad is just that, a documenting of fact that someone is already a national as of and by of fact of birth to a certain parent(s).
@George
And–BTW–I do respect and appreciate that you are motivated by a desire to help HC. I’m just not sure how strong a case HC has for relinquishment but am willing to be convinced if he has a more persuasive argument than it might initially seem.
@Dash, ” In the latter case the process–including obtaining Canadian citizenship–could have been completed long before age 13. In the former case it is unclear what event exactly triggered something of note to happen at age 13. I remain a bit confused.”
Yes, his/her status must have changed with respect to Canada at age 13.
If it was simply a registration of birth at that age and a Certificate was issued to simply make it easier to prove already existing nationality then there was clearly no relinquishing act performed.
But…………we have now learned that a child under age 18, prior to 1986 may have been able to relinquish on taking on a “foreign” citizenship. 🙂
@George
I have in fact personally registered as an Irish citizen through my Irish born grandmother. I did so as an adult. I am quite familiar with the process. It is something quite different from having one’s birth registered as an infant as a Canadian born abroad.
BTW Ireland is NOT part of the Commonwealth. I’m sure that my grandmother–who grew up quite close to the border between the Republic of Ireland and the land that the UK claims in Northern Ireland and was very affected by the Irish war of independence–would be quite offended by such a suggestion.
@Dash, as a fellow countryman….thats why I added in “(current/former/special case).” 😉
I have started to think that those who want to relinquish for cost or any other reasons bypassing renouncing, Ireland is probably an option for those that have a link. Germany/Poland/Italy are also possibilities.
I think HC or similiar situated persons would need to get their Canadian Citizenship records and hopefully find an old form that says something to the effect “Current Nationality:” with US Citizen then written in by the applicant.
In the last couple years I do remember on these boards where we have had persons who in fact were not previously Canadian but became Canadian prior to age 18……all likely before 1986.
But yes, I am now wondering if HC was simply a birth registration of some sort.
@Dash, solely as it may be useful to other readers.
Registration for Irish Citizenship through a grandparent I believe includes a grandparent born in the northern counties.
So in effect you could have someone whose grandparent was born in the north and because it was a grandparent they are not eligible for British Citizenship BUT they are eligible for Irish Citizenship!!
Someone from the US could use their Irish heritage to in effect emigrate to the UK.
@George
The main difference between the “registration” of a birth abroad for a Canadian versus the “registration” based on an Irish-born grandparent is that the former is retroactive to birth–the latter (Irish) case the citizenship is only effective from when the application is approved. I’m afraid I don’t know enough about relinquishment to be sure whether this difference is significant from a US perspective. But that is the main difference.
Incidentally if you have an Irish-born parent–not just an Irish-born grandparent–then the Irish citizenship is effective from birth not from the date that you claim it. So when it comes to claiming directly from a parent, the Irish law and the Canadian law are very, very similar. It is just that Ireland has this registration procedure for an Irish born grandparent that has no equivalent in Canada.
Yes it is true that you can register Irish citizenship if the grandparent was born anywhere on the island of Ireland. My grandmother happens to have been from very close to the border but which side of the border didn’t matter when it came to her (and her children’s/grandchildren’s) Irish citizenship.
rge, Dash
Offhand, I know of 3 Brockers who tried and failed to claim relinquishment due to naturalization in Canada as minors. One was denied directly by DoS lawyers in D.C. This is even though the law at the time clearly indicates it was allowed.
To Tokyo Rose, Sasha and all others interested in the US Social Security Number (SNN),
Here is how one US citizen living in Japan got the OMG moment — information you / we should all have to understand applying for the US SSN and its over-reaching uses:
I found the actual application: http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/212239.pdf
and from FAQ’s: https://pptform.state.gov/include/FAQ.htm