Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
Alberta, as far as I can see, does not offer an EDL. Here is a 2009 CBC article on the security issues that Alberta (as well as Saskatchewan and New Brunswick) had with its use. http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/security-privacy-issues-abound-with-enhanced-driver-s-licences-critics-1.822377 said:
@calgary411
Thanks for posting that article.
I note that that article is from 2009 when the Canadian passport may have been a more secure alternative. Canada didn’t start issuing e-passports until 2013. I would be very interested in a side by side comparison of the security risks of the two documents available in 2014–the EDL and the present day e-passport. Unfortunately that article doesn’t give us that–although it does present a bit of a case for someone with an old unexpired non-electronic passport continuing to use that until it expires.
I’m also not sure I follow the article’s claim that a passport–and not an EDL–will somehow protect a Canadian from being deported to a third country. Didn’t the very high profile case of a bona fide Canadian citizen being deported to Syria a few years back involve someone traveling on a valid Canadian passport.
Ultimately this is all about risk management. I’m imagining a situation where I was an accidental American living in Canada as a Canadian citizen. I think I’d consider it lower risk to have US law enforcement know where I am for 3 days of the year when I visit the US as opposed to the IRS knowing where I am in Canada 365 days a year.
Also the article talks about these EDL’s being readable at arm’s length. If I’ve got a policeman just an arm’s length away from me, he’s in a position to arrest me if he wants. I don’t think the document I’m carrying matters much at that point.
Again–this is all about risk management. There are risks either way. I personally would opt for the EDL if I were a Canadian with a US birthplace living in a province that issues them. Alberta doesn’t issue them.
Dash, thanks — it’s all quite interesting and I don’t fully understand how these work.
Which begs the question, if I did have an EDL, would I still have to check in with the border officials or wave the EDL at a machine to let me pass through? What about my son who may be a passenger in my car who does not have an EDL (as he has no drivers license at all) but does have a Canadian passport that shows he was born in Canada. He, though, is still traveling with his mom who has that US birth place (though it doesn’t show on the EDL as I would have obtained it by applying with my other than Alberta drivers license and it did not ask me anything about a US citizenship or US birthplace or any CLN, which I do have).
Think my choice will be to continue to stay more safely on this side of the border and have a long-distance relationship with remaining siblings and my son with his aunts and uncles (grandma and grandpa already gone) than risk subjecting my son to any interrogation that still might take place at the border. And, none applies to me, as we reside in Alberta.
And, what a horror, that we have to think of work-arounds to live any semblance of a normal life.
@calgary411
I don’t think I’d recommend an EDL for either you or your son even if you lived in a province that issued them. I’m talking here mainly about “accidental Americans” whose only connection to the USA–at any time in their life–was to be born in the USA. You grew up in the USA and then renounced or relinquished as an adult. Your son doesn’t have a US birthplace. I presume you lived in the USA long enough to get a social security number, etc, and get “into the system”. I’m talking here mainly about accidental Americans, born in the USA, but who have never been “in the US system” and prefer to keep it that way.
You may also partly be thinking about a Nexus card which is something different again. A Nexus card does allow you to cross with minimal scrutiny MOST of the time. However I do NOT recommend a Nexus card for someone hoping to keep a low profile with the US authorities. Once you get it, you may be able to cross freely, but to get it requires a very thorough face-to-face interview with the US (and Canadian) authorities. All details as to one’s background WILL come to light if you get a Nexus card.
I got a Nexus card in 2011 because I was applying for US citizenship at the time so was under close US scrutiny either way. I know more now about these privacy issues than I did in 2011 so I’m not sure if I’ll renew it–I may let my Nexus card die a quiet death when it expires in 2016. My EDL I will keep as long as I live in a state or province that issues them as it is a simpler process requiring only proof of citizenship to the DMV people.
A Nexus card does require that everyone in the car have one or no one can use their Nexus cards. AFAIK an EDL has no such requirement–some can show an EDL and others a passport, etc. The EDL doesn’t particularly make it easier to cross–you still need to wait in the same long line as passport holds and see the same agents. It just avoids drawing attention to a US birthplace–nothing more, nothing less.
Washington state does have an enhanced state ID card which is the equivalent border crossing document to an EDL for those who don’t drive. I don’t know if the Canadian provinces that issue EDL’s have a similar EID for non-drivers.
Thanks, Dash; I’ve learned from you a lot more today about crossing the Canadian / US border. It was just speculation on my part, but others may be able to take advantage of all you have shared about EDL and Nexus.
Thanks for the replies,
Is relinquishment a possibility? Again no US ties. Born in the USA to Canadian parents that were working there, moved to Canada at age 1 and became Canadian in my teens. No US passport and have voted in Canada – never voted in a US election.
HonestCanadian,
Generally, those born in the US to Canadian parents (born dual)
http://americansabroad.org/issues/citizenship/citizenship-requirements-faqs/
are not eligible to claim relinquishment (like by taking citizenship of another country), unless …
See: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2014/03/20/relinquishment-of-us-citizenship-by-persons-born-dual-or-who-naturalised-in-a-foreign-country-as-a-minor/
@HonestCanadian, @calgary411
It seems to me that HonestCanadian’s ability to relinquish may partly depend on how he acquired Canadian citizenship. ie whether his parents registered him as a Canadian citizen born abroad or whether he emigrated formally to Canada and took the oath of Canadian citizenship. I seem to recall the last time this issue came up on here that I learned that the law then in effect required parents to register the birth within 2 years. If not, the child had to go through the formal immigration process. This would have been a hassle at the time but would quite possibly be good news now making it easier to relinquish.
Relinquishment if the option is available would definitely be the way to go as it would establish loss of citizenship at a young age before HonestCanadian’s children were born and likely before he acquired significant income.
@HonestCanadian
Changes to Canada’s Citizenship Act in 2009 have likely made you a Canadian citizen at birth, as it has me:
“The old law was criticized for being complicated and confusing and leading to uncertainty for many people about their citizenship status. The changes made in April 2009 simplified the rules by having restored or given Canadian citizenship to many who never had it or lost it due to previous laws.
Furthermore, under the old rules, it was possible for Canadians to pass on their citizenship to endless generations born outside Canada. To protect the value of Canadian citizenship for the future, the 2009 law generally limits citizenship by descent to one generation born outside Canada.
Who became a citizen under the 2009 law?
People who became citizens when the very first Canadian Citizenship Act came into force in 1947 and people born or naturalized in Canada after 1947 and who subsequently lost their citizenship reacquired citizenship unless they formally renounced it or had it revoked because of fraud.
Also, people born abroad to a Canadian parent after 1947 who lost or never had citizenship due to former citizenship laws also became citizens under the 2009 law, but only if they had a Canadian parent who was born or naturalized in Canada. People who formally renounced their citizenship or had it revoked because of fraud did not automatically become citizens under the 2009 law.”
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/citizenship/rules_2009.asp
@Bubblebustin
“who lost or never had citizenship due to former citizenship laws”
But this wouldn’t apply to HonestCanadian’s situation, since HC didn’t lose citizenship and isn’t one who “never had citizenship”.
A naturalized Canadian citizen has more rights than someone born outside Canada to Canadian parents under the 2009 law so, if naturalized, it is better to retain that status.
If HonestCanadian was naturalized in Canada the naturalization oath could be considered relinquishment especially as he never exercised US citizenship in any way after that date.
We need more input from HC to discuss further.
honest canadian You asked the same question a few days ago. How old were you when you became canadian and exactly how did that happen. ( You were probably canadian already) However taking an oath to a foreign country while over the age (with intent to relinquish) is a relinquishing act. That ‘s why it’s important to know how old you were.
@Dash1729
The changes would make Honest Canadian’s Canadian citizenship retroactive to birth. Having Canadian citizenship at birth would, with five years of US tax would also exempt HonestCanadian from US exit taxes. There a pluses and minuses either way, but given the choice I’d rather pay the $450 and be a Canadian at birth. Who knows what other protections that might bring in the future.
But I agree we need more details.
OddlyNamed. You said you were stopped. Were you denied entry or merely held up for a while? there’s a big difference. The US is one of the countries that will not accept a passport that doesn’t show place of birth.
Breaking Sad. I agree with you. Until I see much better evidence to the contrary, ,travelling to the US with a Canadian passport with US place of birth is still an option .
@Bubblebustin
“Who knows what other protections that might bring in the future.”
Of course I don’t know about the future. But I do know–and I’m speaking for the moment about Canadian law–that at present it is sometimes better to be a naturalized Canadian than to be a Canadian from birth. A naturalized Canadian, even though born outside Canada, will always pass their Canadian citizenship on to their own children. A Canadian from birth, if born outside Canada to Canadian parents, doesn’t enjoy that right.
The 2009 law granted citizenship from birth to many people born outside Canada to Canadian parents but it also simultaneously downgraded the value of that citizenship to second class status. As such it was at best a mixed blessing.
In other words: I don’t have kids. But if I did have kids, the ones born before 2009 would be Canadian citizens. The ones born after 2009 would not be Canadian citizens. The value of my Canadian citizenship was downgraded in 2009.
@Dash1729
I naturalized as a Canadian prior to 2009’s changes and have yet to claim my citizenship at birth status, but I believe that Tdott has done so under similar circumstances as mine. I had no intention of relinquishing US citizenship when I naturalized but maybe it’s not an either/or situation with HonestCanadian when his intent to relinquished happened prior to 2009. He/she could have the best of both situations. Could HonestCanadian have it both ways in the eyes of the US?
@Dash1729, Bubblebustin
Further details:
Born in the US early 1970’s
Canadian Parents where working there at the time
Moved back to Canada at age 1
I have a birth certificate from the state I was born
Became a Canadian Cit age 13 (applied for it I think?)
Let me know if you need anything else…
Thanks
@bubblebustin
It would be interesting to know whether someone who was naturalized prior to the 2009 law–but who is now entitled to citizenship from birth–can in fact choose which kind of Canadian citizen they want to be. This could be important in certain circumstances if they had children outside Canada since 2009.
I believe HC is a ‘he’–he described himself as a father in an earlier post. I believe if he did naturalize as a Canadian, he could have the “best of both worlds”. Ie he could use his Canadian naturalization to relinquish and then only later claim Canadian citizenship from birth if he wants that.
@Dash1729
Thanks for pointing out how people like us became a second class citizens after 2009, but the point of the laws change is so that there would not be endless generations of Canadians who have never set foot on Canadian soil.
My question is, why the haik did HonestCanadian have to naturalize as an adult when he moved to Canada under the age of two – the cut-off age for registering Canadian children born abroad? I guess this is one of the complications that the Act wanted to address. How can you register a child born abroad while that child is living in Canada?
@HC
Sounds like you probably didn’t take a naturalization oath. I would remember taking such an oath at age 13–it wouldn’t be an “I think I applied” situation.
Just a wild guess, HonestCanadian, but what you might have done at age 13 was claim your Canadian citizenship, not a relinquishing act (but who knows?).
@Dash1979
That is a good point. Never really gave it much thought till now – I am not 100% sure
I ordered a record of my citizenship from Can Gov through the online method today for $5 thanks to the information on this site. I am hoping that clarifies things.
@bubblebustin
I agree with the 2009 law’s purpose (preventing endless generations of Canadians living outside Canada) but I think the children of Canadians who have resided in Canada as Canadians as adults should have a right–but not an obligation–to claim Canadian citizenship. Not so much those who’ve never set foot in Canada. The 2009 law left a bad taste in my mouth that my Canadian citizenship had grown weaker–and this might in the future manifest itself in other ways too–and was a factor in my deciding in 2011 it was time to become a US citizen.
@bubblebustin, @HC
Yes–I suspect that @HC’s parents did register him as a Canadian born abroad before age 2–and then later (after the 1977 law took effect)–obtained a Canadian citizenship certificate showing a date when he was age 13. The date on Canadian citizenship certificates issued at that time is not necessarily the date citizenship was actually acquired–it is the date the certificate was issued. This is just a guess but unfortunately if it is true it would definitely make relinquishment a harder sell.
Cross-posting this comment here: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2014/08/01/must-listen-interview-with-sencarllevin-corporate-inversions-renouncing-citizenship/comment-page-1/#comment-2453618 as it says at the end:
Any others that have learned this about the Toronto U.S. Consulate or any other U.S. Consulate? That is quite a wait!
bubblebustin, Dash, HonestCanadian,
A lot has happened in this conversation since I left it. More needs to be learned about your facts, HonestCanadian. This is another example of just how complicated and not so easily understood are “citizenship” laws, past and present
One thing, most of us would agree is positive:
HonestCanadian could not pass “US” citizenship on to any children born in Canada as he hadn’t lived in the US for the requisite amount of time after age 14.
A lot to learn, to understand.