Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@Kathy, Renounce only. Relinquishment wouldn’t be possible as she’s born dual.
@Medea Fleecestealer
Thanks. That’s what I thought, but I wasn’t sure.
@Kathy if she was 25 before Oct 10, 1978 she might be able to relinquish under sec 350 of the 1952 INA. That’s what I am trying to do but not sure yet if I’ll be successful. Sec 350 deals with dual nationals.
@Cheryl
Have you been to the US consulate and if so, when?
@notamused:
I performed another analysis of the German naturalization data of US citizens. The driver of the increase in naturalizations from 2006 to 2012 is category “Art.116 Abs.2 S.1 GG, Frühere deutsche Staatsang.” (Reclaiming earlier German citizenship). As mentioned above, this is the category used by former German citizens and their descendents who involuntarily lost their German citizenship during the period 1933 to 1945.
Total naturalizations of Americans in Germany:
2006: 429
2007: 434
2008: 595
2009: 578
2010: 771
2011: 869
2012: 756
Total naturalizations of Americans in Germany who retained existing (US) citizenship:
2006: 347
2007: 352
2008: 531
2009: 501
2010: 685
2011: 786
2012: 673
Total naturalizations of Americans in Germany under Art.116 Abs.2 S.1 GG, Frühere deutsche Staatsang.” (Reclaiming earlier German citizenship) and retaining existing (US) citizenship:
2006: 303
2007: 322
2008: 514
2009: 485
2010: 663
2011: 752
2012: 592
It is evident that Americans who are descendents of those who lost their German citizenship during the Nazi period are “reclaiming” German citizenship in increasing numbers. I would speculate that more Americans are realizing that having an EU citizenship is desirable. Whether they stay in the US with their German citizenship souvenir, re-settle to Germany or re-settle to another EU country is not revealed in the data.
@Innocente
Thanks for that further analysis. It does indeed raise further questions about the particular situations of those people and what the motivations were for retaining US citizenship.
I’m having second thoughts about relinquishing now (that is, advising them of the relinquishment). For those us us lucky enough to have what appears to be a slam-dunk case (no US ties, worked for Canadian government), does anyone see a problem with wait-and-see? If issues arise, wouldn’t it be fairly easy to invoke the “I relinquished years ago” defense at that time? I mean, it is understandable to plead ignorance on such matters, and the most important factor seems to be the relinquishing act which happenend in the 80s. Going through the embassy will be five hours driving each way, accommodations etc. Quite an expense. I’d rather avoid it.
I knw some of you feel strongly about cutting the ties… don’t shoot me… I am finding the whole thing quite stressful and want to consider all options. Thanks.
Doing nothing is a reasonable approach.
BreakingSad, KalC,
Nobody can say with certainty but with your facts, I agree with KalC that would be a *reasonable* decision in your case, BreakingSad. Our decisions are personal and we can only make them with the best research we can and you likely have done just that. No one knows what would be easy in defense. And, no one here would shoot you for own your well-thought out decision. (I know the ones I would like to shoot if I were the shooting kind.)
BreakingSad, I agree with Calgary411. It’s totally reasonable.
I understand your hesitation to pull the plug. I will be relinquishing when I take the oath this fall. I don’t like being forced into this. And it really feels like I am being forced because being a dual should be a non-issue.
But the reality is that I am never going to live in the US again. It is not my home and more importantly, it’s not my husband or my children’s home. I will be where they are. There is simply nothing to discuss beyond that.
The USG, imo, is forcing us to choose.
You are fortunate because your relinquishment was long ago so you can claim ignorance of the rules, buy some time and see how things will play out.
I am just going to do what has to be done and not worry about it beyond that. Life is too short to stress about something that is so far out of my control.
I’m currently in the final stages (one might say the final throes) of completing all of my back tax/FBAR paperwork.
However, I don’t have a SSN yet. The Toronto Consulate web site advises that applying through them can take 4-5 months before even hearing from Social Services. Personally, I’d really like to be done by then.
It is apparently much faster if you apply in person at a US SS office. Anyone have any experiences to share about that?
First-time poster here. Please excuse any errors in protocol etc. If I need to be doing something different at any point wrt posting etiquette, just let me know.
Background: I live in the Caribbean. Our country is apparently set to sign a bilateral tax treaty with the US. Banks are gearing up to do reporting, but no-one is reporting as yet. I just realized that I need to get compliant.
I was born in the US, moved when I was 5, and have been here ever since. Did all my schooling here, married here, divorced here, had two kids here. I am over 40, but never had any income of my own until 2012 (and even then, it was less than $10,000 USD). (I went from being supported by Mom & Dad to being supported by husband, to being supported by Mom & Dad again when I was divorced – I have an autistic son, and they paid/pay the bills so I can concentrate on tending to his needs.)
BUT… they have made me joint on several of their accounts. They are not my assets, but I do have access to them. So that complicates things. When banks here start reporting, I foresee problems. So I would like to get out from in front of the approaching train ASAP.
The plan so far:
a) panic;
b) become FBAR and tax compliant (how exactly to do this, OVDI or not, file for how many years etc I am still not sure – advice would be appreciated); then
c) renounce citizenship (I do not think I can relinquish… I have kept my US passport current, and still travel on it)
I have considered the issue of renouncing carefully, and I think it necessary for several reasons (will put those in a separate comment if necessary, so this one doesn’t get too long). Yet whenever I have any initial contact with tax preparers etc (admittedly, only a few so far), they totally LOSE THEIR MINDS when I say the word “renounce”, and their attitude changes after that. They immediately start advising me against it, and the unspoken implication seems to be that I am a traitor of some kind. And at that point I know they won’t be able to help me.
So, at this point, I need basically 2 things:
a) a good lawyer/tax preparer who can help me implement my exit strategy without prejudice (I can find no-one in my country equipped to handle anything like this, so I think I may have to go with a lawyer from the US or Canada); and
b) moral support/advice from people who have walked the road before me. (With all the reading/research I have been doing, it’s enough to scare anyone into a coma.)
I will do my best to pay it forward by sharing my experiences here so others can benefit.
Thanks for reading… sorry to be so wordy.
IsabellaG,
There is no protocol here; please don’t apologize for anything. The US needs to apologize to you. Damn them for making the lives of people like you so hard. You should not have to worry about this on top of all else.
No, don’t panic — and don’t even think OVDI! It is not meant for someone like you. Also, you do not have to be tax compliant before you renounce. Your tax compliance has NOTHING to do with your decision to renounce US citizenship. You’re correct — you could not relinquish as you have retained and used a US passport for your travel.
If you have made under $10,000 USD, you do not have to file a US tax return, so you are OK there and you should not need a US tax preparer. (I could, of course, be wrong.)
If the accounts that you are joint on with your parents exceed the aggregate (total) amount of $10,000, the Foreign Bank Account Report (FBAR, which is now FINCEN114: http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Employed/Report-of-Foreign-Bank-and-Financial-Accounts-FBAR) is supposed to be filed. It would appear that if you file back FBARs, you would have a good Reasonable Cause Argument against penalties for not having filed. Are you parents US citizens — or were you just in the US with your parents of another country and moved away from the US at the age of five? I do think you need some legal advice on the advisability of removing yourself from the accounts on which you are joint with your parents (on behalf of your son’s needs and so you could access those funds should something happen to your parents).
As a start, if I were you, I would read and pose an account of your situaton here: http://citizenshipsolutions.ca/2013/07/10/what-you-should-consider-before-contacting-a-lawyer/.
Others here may have better advice for you than I.
You will find support here — stay tuned and ask whatever questions you need to as you proceed. Others won’t understand what you are going through; we do!
Hi,
I just found out by accident 3 days ago that perhaps I should have been filing a US tax returns every year!?
Here’s some general information:
– Born in USA in early 1970’s to Canadian parents that were living and working in the USA at the time
– We moved back to Canada when I was 1 years old
– Have been living and working in Canada ever since
– Never earned any income in the US and don’t owe any US property (zero ties)
– Never had a US passport
– Never had a social security number
– Became a Canadian Cit in my early teens
– Only been back to the USA a handful of times for shopping etc, – last visit being a few years ago
I thought I was following all laws by working hard and paying taxes in Canada, I had no idea that I would need to file in the US.
Why would they not tell me at the border when I went through the handful of times if this is so important to them?
I am concerned and confused at the same time. I am a hardworking dad with a young family to support.
Any advice on what my next steps should be would be appreciated….
Thanks in advance
IsabellaG, welcome. Not a club that many of us want to belong to but we are numerous, so you are in good company.
Good news, that you probably figured out already, is that you didn’t pass your citizenship on to your kids!
Unfortunate about the needing to back file and I agree that you need to find someone who is not going to be judgey about your plan and might be able to help you fine tune it.
If you haven’t read this – http://maplesandbox.ca/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Synopisis-Ricardson-London-Ontario.pdf – you should.
Can’t help you with a recommendation for tax filing help. Do all that myself with spouse’s help but on the right side bar there are “ask your questions” links and someone will likely be able to point you in a good direction.
Good luck!
Welcome, HonestCanadian.
There are many of us who have the same story as you do. Others with no doubt provided excellent, sage advice, but let me start with the most common refrain here: don’t panic, don’t begin by contacting lawyers or accountants (that may come later, but don’t start there).
Do begin by reading the introductory documents here. On the right of this page, near the top, is a box titled “Important Information”, where the first link is called “New to this? Then START HERE…”. I recommend you start there.
You will have some decisions to make, and some soul-searching to do. But there is no reason to panic. Read, educate yourself, ask lots of questions, be skeptical, and you will get through this.
And we’re here to help. (I have no right to say “we” … I’ve been here for years but mostly lurking. But there are many brave and smart people here who have been a huge help for me and many, many others. And I’ll chip in for encouragement where I can.)
OddlyNamed,
You’ve just helped and have every right to say “WE”.
Thank you so much for your responses! I feel a bit calmer already…
I have no ideas how to quote people in a post, but I’ll indent or something and hopefully you’ll understand when I quote something.
@calgary411:
Thank you. For the information. And for the validation. No, I don’t need this.
No, don’t panic — and don’t even think OVDI! It is not meant for someone like you. Also, you do not have to be tax compliant before you renounce. Your tax compliance has NOTHING to do with your decision to renounce US citizenship.
If you have made under $10,000 USD, you do not have to file a US tax return, so you are OK there and you should not need a US tax preparer. (I could, of course, be wrong.)
If the accounts that you are joint on with your parents exceed the aggregate (total) amount of $10,000, the Foreign Bank Account Report (FBAR, which is now FINCEN114: http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Employed/Report-of-Foreign-Bank-and-Financial-Accounts-FBAR) is supposed to be filed. It would appear that if you file back FBARs, you would have a good Reasonable Cause Argument against penalties for not having filed. Are you parents US citizens — or were you just in the US with your parents of another country and moved away from the US at the age of five? I do think you need some legal advice on the advisability of removing yourself from the accounts on which you are joint with your parents (on behalf of your son’s needs and so you could access those funds should something happen to your parents).
As a start, if I were you, I would read and pose an account of your situaton here: http://citizenshipsolutions.ca/2013/07/10/what-you-should-consider-before-contacting-a-lawyer/.
Others here may have better advice for you than I.
You will find support here — stay tuned and ask whatever questions you need to as you proceed. Others won’t understand what you are going through; we do!
@BreakingSad, you say that you “are having second thoughts on relinquishing.”
I need to correct your choice of terms, folks here will tell you I am a stickler on terms. You have either relinquished or you did not relinquish, you can not have second thoughts.
What you can have are “second thoughts on getting a CLN,”
We need to make very clear that possession of a CLN does not make a relinquisher less of a US Citizen than a relinquisher who does not have one. A CLN is not required to lose US Citizenship. Possession of and issuance of a CLN is solely part of 8 US Code 1481 with respect to renouncing. Further there is documentation from Congress stating that a CLN is not required.
I will break party with my fellow Brockers and state that doing nothing is NOT a reasonable approach.
If you relinquished your US Citizenship yesterday or twenty years ago, you are not a US Citizen.
In a post-FATCA environment you MUST either get a CLN or be able to prove through other documents that you in fact are no longer a US Citizen. So you can not do nothing.
Should you elect not to get a CLN, you need to build a file to the best of your ability that shows you lost your US Citizenship.
Start by printing out 8 US Code 1481.
Then photocopy your Canadian passport, your oath of citizenship, your proof of government employment if that was a relinquishing act.
If you do not want to get a CLN, you may want to go to your Canadian lawyer and swear an oath that you relinquished your US Citizenship by doing this and that on such and such date.
But you must do something, if that makes sense.
IsabellaG,
Additionally, if you do contact citizenshipsolutions.ca for an out-of-your-country point of view on what your best course of action is, also ask about removing yourself as a joint account holder with your parents and what might be a better alternative for you. It is pitiful and absurd that something you have set up for the protection and best interests of your autistic child should have to be short-circuited for complying with some draconian laws of the US that should not even affect an “Accidental American” who left the US at the age of five years old.
YogaGirl is correct and it is a wonderful blessing that you do NOT pass on US citizenship to your children!
@IsabellaG, if you have not committed a prior relinquishing act the only choice is to formally renounce which means the $450 fee and in turn you get a CLN.
After renouncing, you should then come into compliance with the streamlined program. Go online and read all the instructions. You also need to look at the historical instructions for each year on “Who Must File.” If you did not need to file, then create the documentation proving you did not need to file.
You think you need to file FBARs then you need to get six years of statements from those joint accounts and all your personal accounts together. Follow streamlined instructions for FBAR.
OK – I do agree with George, BreakingSad. What George outlines will be the better approach, without the formality of jumping through many difficult hoops to get to a US Consulate to claim the relinquishment you already have in trade for a piece of paper, the CLN. By preparing as George says, you will be better prepared for whatever eventuality that occurs (OR NOT).
Never quit trying to get this into my / our thick skulls, George.
Whoa… my last post got sent while I was still writing… so sorry about that! That was not the response I meant to send…
Will try again in a bit…
But thank you SO much, everyone… finally the light at the end of the tunnel looks like hope and not like an oncoming train…
You don’t have to have a SSN to renounce — I think you will find that in various comments of those in the Consulate Directory Report: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/consulate2/.
There is discussion on SSN’s at: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/renunciation/comment-page-79/#comment-1164238.
and: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/renunciation/comment-page-78/#comment-1159780
@HonestCanadian
IMHO–and I’m not a lawyer or accountant–doing nothing is a perfectly viable solution in your situation. But others may disagree. Definitely recommend researching your options as carefully as possible.
IMHO Canadians living in Canada with no ties to the US should NOT be allowing themselves to be identified as “US persons”–and should be refusing to describe themselves as US persons. Of course I base this in part because of your situation–you don’t seem to need to cross the border frequently and presumably are fully ensconced in Canada with established bank accounts, etc.
IMHO it is a mistake to get yourself into the US system by doing anything at all to acknowledge US status–this includes claiming US citizenship, renouncing it, relinquishing it, applying for a US passport, applying for a US SSN, dealing w/the IRS in any way, etc. There may be risks in doing nothing too, but the risks of getting into the US system–when in your situation it can only hurt you, not benefit you–seem to me to be higher. Just my opinion–others may differ.
If Canadian institutions start routinely asking for place of birth–IMHO a very different question than the much more vague “US person” concept–my viewpoint might change.
Again–I’m not a lawyer or accountant and a lawyer or accountant may have a different viewpoint. The problem with a lawyer or accountant’s advice in this situation IMHO is that they try to reduce risk but unfortunately there is risk either way–I just think the risk is lower by staying completely out of the US system by refusing to acknowledge US status in any way.