Liberty and justice for all United States persons abroad

The Isaac Brock Society

Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two

Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.

Participants will need to provide their e-mail address (real or fake) and an alias. The only written rule is that participants must use a same alias each time they post (and not “anonymous” or derivatives thereof).

Bear in mind that any responses that you get from participants is peer-to-peer help, and it is not intended as a replacement for professional advice. Also, the Isaac Brock Society provides this disclaimer: neither the Society nor any of its members are professionals. We offer our advice here only in friendship and we recommend that our readers seek professional advice if they need it.

If you wish to receive an e-mail notification of comments, check the box to that effect when making your first comment.

NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too  large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One

 

10,433 thoughts on “Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two”

  1. Thanks for this update, TokyoRose. This site is accessed worldwide by more than actually comment here so I’d say very likely that someone your way will benefit from the report of your experience! It will be added to the Consulate Report Directory by Pacifica: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/consulate2/

  6. LM, badger,

    This is obscene. What I’ve just read is my biggest worry — that the US would be able to get to what I leave to my son who is entrapped into his *supposed* US citizenship by ‘mental incapacity’ — compared to what I will leave for my daughter who has been able to renounce her US citizenship.

  7. @Calgary411

    I’m pretty sure all this only applies if you were a covered expat, which I don’t believe you are.

  8. I hope so, WhatAmI. I am not a covered expatriate.

    Trying to get my head around:

    Accordingly, many of these former U.S. citizen and LPRs think they should not be concerned if they do not have significant assets with lots of unrealized gain. Unfortunately, the lack of attention to Section 2801 can be very nearsighted.

    The idea that only wealthy individuals with assets should be concerned about being a “covered expatriate” is misplaced. The former U.S. citizen or LPR should not lose sight of the U.S. tax costs to their future beneficiaries of their estate, trusts they fund in the future, or future gifts. For instance, if the spouse or one or more of the children are U.S. citizens (or even unborn grandchildren or great grandchildren), there might be an unforeseen tax to pay many years in the future. The tax under Section 2801 is currently 40% of the gross value of the “covered gift” or “covered bequest.” The recipient pays this tax, not the former U.S. citizen or LPR. Plus, the rate of this tax at 40% of the gross value, is always much higher than the “mark-to’market” income tax (only applicable to the income or gain – and not the full value of the property) as the person leaves the U.S.

    The application of Section 2801 requires anyone contemplating renouncing (or proving a prior relinquishment) of citizenship to strategically consider the long-term consequences to his or her family and friends.

    and the part “The tax under Section 2801 is currently 40% of the gross value of the “covered gift” or “covered bequest.” The recipient pays this tax, not the former U.S. citizen or LPR.”

    My son’s portion of my “estate” will go to a discretionary trust to then (as I had planned, but my plan perhaps shot to hell, seamlessly fund my son’s monthly living expenses as his provincial Alberta Assured Income for Severely Handicapped does now (but will no longer when my estate — RRIF, house sale, other investment is divided between my two children).

    Even that little bit of “legalese” I cannot understand. A pox on them all!

  9. @Calgary411
    “Forever Taint” is TOTALLY obscene.
    I had an OMG moment not in relation to myself but in relation to our adult son. Born in Canada, he renounced his US citizenship 6 months before I did. However, his C-L wife (the child of a US citizen, born in England) has a (I am 99.99% certain invalid) notion that if she holds on to her US citizenship that somehow this may give their young children some future easier opportunity to gain US citizenship if they so want.
    I would explain the facts to this woman but she tends to be defensive and not take in much in the way of knowledge that I might be able to offer……
    The point is, “adults son” IS a former US citizen; even tho he had a 2nd (Cdn) citizenship at birth and, thus, had an easier path through renunciation, this “forever taint” hangs over this union if his partner does NOT renounce – – if he died next month, think of all those taxes she would have to pay!!! And for what?!?!?!?!
    All I can say is “YIKES” and perhaps this should be added to our list of things to tell interviewers or any submissions we make!

  11. @ Medea Fleecestealer RE http://www.uscis.gov/us-citizenship
    Never looked at this page before but it REALLY agrees with what John Richardson has been saying, that you don’t automatically get US citizenship if you were born abroad to US parents. See the following (All-cap emphasis is mine):

    If you meet certain requirements, you MAY become a U.S. citizen either at birth or after birth.
    To become a citizen at birth, you must:
    Have been born in the United States or certain territories or outlying possessions of the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction of the United States; OR had a parent or parents who were citizens at the time of your birth (if you were born abroad) AND MEET OTHER REQUIREMENTS

    To become a citizen after birth, you must:
    APPLY FOR “DERIVED” OR “ACQUIRED CITIZENSHIP THROUGH PARENTS
    Apply for naturalization

    If one can only renounce US citizenship after age 18 (renouncing as an adult for oneself), doesn’t it seem consistent that is one should not be allowed to BECOME a full (permanently taxable) citizen as a young child (before 18, before becoming an adult with adult rights of acceptance/rejection) just because one’s parent’s “registered” the birth abroad???????

  12. @LM, yes it does make sense. Renouncing before the age of 18 doesn’t count because they think children a) don’t understand the consequences and b) could be being coerced into doing so, even if they don’t want to. So to say that a child born abroad can’t become a full citizen until the age of 18 and they decide to do so makes sense. Unfortunately, when you have your birth abroad registered with an US embassy/consulate, the logic disappears. Because they can’t believe that people wouldn’t want US citizenship if given the choice trying to persuade them that, even though your birth abroad was registered, you really aren’t and don’t want to be American is a futile exercise.

    Mind you, the British work in the same way. I have my British nationality via my British parents even though I was born in the States and my birth abroad was registered with the British embassy in the States. But of course, the British don’t care if I enter the UK on an American passport or expect me to contribute to their money coffers if I’m not actually living there.

    Let’s face it. It’s not the citizenship per se that’s the problem, it’s the supposed obligations that go with it that are ruining American lives abroad.

  13. LM,

    I immediately thought of this old post: http://renounceuscitizenship.wordpress.com/2012/08/21/letter-of-a-canadian-businessman-to-his-dual-u-s-canada-citizen-son-on-the-occasion-of-his-high-school-graduation/

    Qualifications for passing on US citizenship to children (as mine born in Canada to two US parents) and for one parent living in the US for five years after the age of 14 (both in and out of wedlock) are outlined here: http://www.uscis.gov/us-citizenship/citizenship-through-parents and good to review to determine if they would even qualify (unless through grandparent(s) ).

    These situations are a definite ‘sit down and discuss all aspects of pro’s and con’s’ for the couple who are parents of the children. Some kind of unrelated mediator to guide what could be a heated discussion might also be wise.

  15. @ Calgary411 – – Thanks! Really good posts about the different ways children can be allowed to get US citizenship from their parents (and how to decide if they want to).
    In my case, grandkiddies are 4 and 7, and this seems such a distant possibility. But who knows, the mom would have to move to the US WITH the kid/kids for a period of 5 years to make this citizenship-right possible. Dad (our son) has renounced, and is very clear about his loyalty to and preference for living in Canada, so I don’t even want to think of this potential. We will just send the link to the issue of “forever tainted” to son and leave it with him. And who knows, by the time the grandkiddies are 18, there will have been all new laws put in place by the US that will change everything…….

  17. @calgary and LM, the US haunts us even unto the future generations. We can’t foresee and rearrange our lives and everyone else’s lives too when their laws are set up to have such a far-reaching and multigenerational effect without representation. UNLESS you are US homelanders who can turn things to favour yourself and your peers, like Jack Lew head of the Treasury ( http://billmoyers.com/2013/03/08/jack-lew-citigroup-and-the-ugland-truth/ or the Commerce Secretary (ex. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-05-21/pritzker-s-54-million-family-trust-fee-seen-as-unique.html ). Or even just a US Ambassador http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2014/02/map_of_ambassador_posts_given_to_obama_s_top_fundraisers_noah_bryson_mamet.html

  18. The state department’s database for issuing documents such as passports, registration of birth abroad, visas has crashed. This has backlogged up to fifty thousand documents in just one country. The article I read this morning did not say which country that was. You can bet if they are backed up on those they are backed up on issuing CLN’s and documentation related to those will have crashed along with the rest. http://bigstory.ap.org/article/glitch-crashes-global-us-passport-visa-operations

  19. What’s Going down i am new to this, I stumbled upon this
    I have discovered It absolutely useful and it has aided me out
    loads. I hope to give a contribution & assist other customers like its aided me.
    Great job.

  20. Can anyone help me here? I am a 70 year old woman who was born in the USA and emigrated to Canada in 1972. In i985 I became a Canadian citizen and took the citizenship oath. Subsequently I worked for the Ontario government for about 10 years. When I became a citizen I was under the impression that I thereby relinquished my American citizenship and that is what I wanted to do. I have never applied for a CLN, as I believed that my US citizenship was gone as soon as I became a Canadian. I filed US tax forms up until I became a Canadian citizen but not subsequently.
    I have been getting a lot of grief at US border crossings from Homeland Security people who think that I should have a US passport because I have a US birthplace. I am also reading horror stories about possible taxes that the IRS may feel are owing. My husband is a Canadian. At last – my questions 1) If apply to renounce citizenship and get a CLN will the effective date of expatriation be the day I took Canadian citizenship (1985) 2 ) I understand that in 1985 there was no obligation to inform the IRS about renunciation of citizenship. Is this correct? 3) Since I expatriated in 1985 and was not at that time obliged to tell the IRS so, do I have any liability for US taxes or tax reporting from 1985 to date?

    Thanks for any insight that anyone can provide

    Clara C.

  21. @Atticus,
    Can’t help but wonder what countries affected the most, and whether it affects CLNs, renunciations, etc.

  22. Clara C.

    Your story is like the many of us who arrived in Canada decades ago. Your becoming a Canadian citizen in 1985 and likely your working for the Ontario government should allow you to claim a relinquishment — UNLESS you have done anything “U.S.” since that time. Go to the Consulate Report Directory: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/consulate2/ for information on forms required, how to make appointments, reports of claims of relinquishment and renunciations at many U.S. Consulates. You should also read http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/relinquishing-acts-performed-prior-to-2004/ — you should not have liability for US taxes or tax reporting from the time of your expatriation. Read and research and ask any more questions you have here.

    I hope you become part of the fight against this. Check the site of Alliance for the Defence of Canadian Sovereignty: http://www.adcs-adsc.ca/. If you can be among those who donate to this cause, we’ll be very grateful.

  23. Clara C.. You RELINQUISHED your US citizenship when you became Canadian in 1985 because that was your intent and intent is important. Becoming Canadian with intent is one of the ways to give up US citizenship. You’ve done that. Good for you.

    You are no longer a US citizen and have no obligation to file any US tax forms. In fact, filing a US tax form would be a mistake because it would be tantamount to saying you were still a US citizen- which you are not.

    You have 2 options. 1) Do nothing and accept the idea that you might continue to be questioned at the border. (actually people are not hassled most of the time).
    2) Make an appointment at the consulate to inform them that you relinquished in 1985. This doesn’t cost any money but takes time and effort on your part. Calgary411 has given you the link on how to start. You would eventually get a certificate of loss of nationality or CLN. Good luck. Consider a donation to ADCS.

  24. Went into the Osaka Consulate yesterday for my first meeting for relinquishment. They had said I could post a completed DS-4079 and other docs and then they would give me a single appointment, but I wanted to go in personally and get a feel for things. I’m glad I did, since I’m always nervous at these types of things, and the experience at the first meeting has put me very much at ease with no worries about the final meeting.

    The meeting was will a local staff, in a meeting room, which was nice, since I had read that in Tokyo they did the entire procedure right at the counter through the bullet-proof glass.

    Once we were seated, about the first thing she said was “you know you don’t have to give up your US citizenship”, which is incorrect. Japan does not recognized dual nationality. The misunderstanding stems from the fact that it is possible to submit a “Choice of Nationality” form in place of a “Loss of Foreign Nationality Form”, but this is intended for those for whom it is not realistically possible to relinquish the other nationality. I pointed out that when I initiated the naturalization process I had full intent to relinquish, and that ended that discussion. In no way did I feel that she was trying to persuade me against relinquishing. She was merely trying to convey the consulate’s mistaken viewpoint that I had other options.

    She said an appointment for the final meeting could be in about 2 weeks, which is sure a lot shorter than the 2 months or longer wait that has been reported in Tokyo! This was actually a bit too soon for me, so I scheduled for September. She said I could contact them if I needed to reschedule, which would be no problem at all. She also said that the CLN would take about one month after that final meeting, but a recent report from Tokyo was just over 2 months.

    When everything’s finished I’ll write up a full report for the Consulate Report Directory.

  25. Question for all:

    Coworker’s mother was born in US to Canadian parents, so she was born dual. Came back to Canada when a toddler and been here ever since. She’s old enough to have reached 25 years old before the law was changed. She has no documentation from USG. Does she have grounds for a past relinquishment or would renouncement be the only way out?

Comments are closed.

%d bloggers like this: