Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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So either everyone is waiting for someone else to answer Cheryl’s question, or something is wrong with the site.
Cheryl and WhiteKat,
Yes, Cheryl, you are correct — that (301b) wouldn’t apply to either of you as you were both born in the USA.
http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/U.S.-Citizens-by-Birth-or-through-a-U.S.-Citizen-Parent
@Cheryl
Because of the years in question, exact dates may be needed here. Canada changed its citizenship law (not for the last time) in 1977. That was on Feb 14, 1977 so it is important to know whether all this happened with you before or after Feb 14, 1977. What specific documents did you actually receive (as opposed to just applying for) documenting Canadian citizenship? A Certificate of Canadian Citizenship? A Certificate of Registration of Birth Abroad? A Certificate of Retention of Canadian Citizenship?
Most likely you never performed a “relinquishing act” before the 1977 law came into effect before you turned 24 and therefore you became a Canadian citizen for life as of Feb 14, 1977 without any action needed on your part. But I’m confused on the timing a bit so more details may be needed.
You are/were a US citizen for life or until you renounce/relinquish because you were born in the USA. If you left the US permanently at 18, your children born outside the USA with a Canadian-only father wouldn’t be US citizens. The rule is the cause of the whole “birther” conspiracy theory surrounding Barack Obama. He cannot claim US citizenship through his mother because she was only 18 when he was born–nor through his father as his father is agreed by all to have been Kenyan–so the question of his actual place of birth therefore comes into play. Of course the so-called “birthers” have never proved that he was born anywhere other than Hawaii but his mother’s age at the time of his birth is key to the conspiracy theory.
@Cheryl,
My reference to 301(b) etc was not thinking of you as a child, but you as a parent.
I left the US at age 12, which was too early for my children to have any citizenship claims. And more importantly, too early for the IRS to have any claims on my children.
I was wondering if you have children? Since you lived in the US until 18, there could be an issue. As I posted the other day, I don’t know if a child gets US citizenship automatically or only if they apply for it.
As for parentage, the law I found just now doesn’t say the father has to be a USC. Either one will do if the child is born in wedlock. Also, depending on the date of birth, the requirement is for the parent to have lived in the US for 5 or 2 years after the age of 14 depending on birth before or after November 14 1986, respectively. The link and quote below match the information in the link given by Calgary411. However, Dash1729 posted that your children are not US citizens if your husband is Canadian only. I can’t find that law. Perhaps he can help us out on this apparent conflict.
http://travel.state.gov/content/travel/english/legal-considerations/us-citizenship-laws-policies/citizenship-child-born-abroad.html
Hopefully, if you have children, they are not US citizens! It’s hard to say how much of a problem it is for them if the US thinks they are USC. I don’t qualify to pass on USC, but if I did, my children’s Alberta birth certificates show my US birthplace. I can’t imagine that FATCA due-diligence or US border entry points would ever turn up that they have any US connection. One would think (and many have posted here) that they are safe. Having said that, I notice that many anti-FATCA media articles, blogs and submissions to parliament mention affected “accidental Americans”, including Canadians born in Canada to US parents, and that many of these people don’t even know they are US citizens.
I would like to thank you all for trying to help me out here. I thought all the facts would be of no value. Here they are.
I was born in the US in June 12, 1953. I spent 3 months of every year from age 1 in Canada. June 1, 1970 just before I turned 17 I left the US permanently, spending 2 months in Canada and 11 months in Switzerland. I moved back to Canada on a student VISA in June 1971 when I had just turned 18. I never lived in the United States after June 1 1970 (age almost 17). My intent in coming to Canada was to become a Canadian citizen if possible and live in Canada for the rest of my life.
I became a landed immigrant in Canada in 1973. I subsequently found out that my parents were Canadian when I was born and I could choose to be a Canadian or an American but not both. I did not want to be an American so I was good with that. I was registered as a Canadian Born Abroad and my certificate is dated Mar. 2, 1977. Although I did not know it the Canadian immigration law had changed and allowed dual citizenship in Feb, 1977 but I was still told that I would lose my American citizenship.
I now understand that that was probably because the United States was still dealing with loss of citizenship through the 1952 INA section 350 as someone told me on this site. That law was repealed but not retroactively after I was given my certificate. I think it is possible now that I can use this to demonstrate that I indeed did an expatriating act??
As well, there is a supreme court decision which states that it is not so important what the words of an oath are as the intent of the individual and demonstration of that intent over time. I have never worked in the United States. I have never voted in the United States. I have never lived in the United States and visited only rarely since I moved to Canada. The last time I was in the United States was 2004 for a weekend in Fargo, North Dakota. I have never used a US passport since I was accepted as a Canadian citizen and used a Canadian passport whenever I visted the United States and no one questioned that I was not an American citizen.
I am hopeful that the cumulative effect of all these facts may help me to get my CNL dated 1977. I guess all I can do is try.
Thank you all very much.
Good for you for trying, Cheryl. You’ll never know until you do. When I started this journey, few thought it possible to be able to claim a relinquishment for decades ago when we were
toldwarned that by becoming Canadian citizen, we would lose our US citizenship. For anyone who examines the Consulate Report Directory that Pacifica maintains, they will see that is not the case. (I am here as prime example to persons of that time NOT to make the same stupid mistakes that I did to be able to to claim that as relinquishment.) Good luck. Stay in touch and let us know the outcome. Your story will be important to others — as each of our stories will be for someone out there.Thank you whatamI. I have been worried about my daughter. I never lived in the US after she was born!
@Cheryl
Yes it is always possible you could get the CLN back dated to 1977 but I think it is not a slam dunk based on your circumstances. Because your certificate is dated Mar 2, 1977 when Canada definitely allowed dual citizenship it is hard to see that as an expatriating act by itself. Also registration of birth abroad (as opposed to naturalizing) is retroactive to birth. OTOH registration of birth abroad is usually initiated by the parents. In your case you did it as an adult during an era when the US was still resistant to dual citizenship–so perhaps it could be seen as an expatriating act.
If you’d naturalized before Feb 14, 1977 I think your case would be a slam dunk. Unfortunately given the circumstances it probably isn’t but as you say it may be worth a try.
@WhatAmI
The law I was referring to is the one you posted. Note that it says “Birth Abroad to One Citizen and One Alien Parent in Wedlock”. So it applies only if the father is Canadian-only (or at least not a US citizen). Different rules (making it MUCH easier to get US citizenship) apply if BOTH parents are born in the US.
@Cheryl left the US permanently at age 17. So 3 years of US residency after age 14. But, yes, I’d forgotten that the law changed again in 1986. So children born after 1986 will be US citizens; children born before 1986 will NOT be US citizens.
Again, all this assumes the father is NOT a US citizen.
I tend to ask this every time this question comes up but I’ve never gotten a clear answer so I’ll pose it again: has the US EVER sought to impose obligations of US citizenship on someone born outside the USA who has never lived in the US, never claimed US citizenship, and never had their parents claim US citizenship on their behalf? I think this is a really, really important question relevant to the situations of many people who post here so I’m surprised it doesn’t generate more interest.
One is dealing with the US DOS…
I don’t see any mention of Canadian Rules in the FAM guide book…
@Cheryl,
Thanks, the details certainly help.
Others have asked if obtaining a Certificate of Canadian Born Abroad is an expatriating act. I’m not sure if anybody has tried. We can only guess. My history is the same as yours as far as the US is concerned, except I got my certificate at 12, which is too young to perform an expatriating act. My opinion of the laws is that an expatriating act gives you a new status in the foreign country, usually citizenship that you didn’t already have. Just as swearing an oath to Canada by a dual citizen is considered meaningless by the US because the foreign citizenship already existed, getting a certificate to prove you’re are a citizen doesn’t change your status at all. You were already a citizen so there is nothing you can do to upset them further except to be a military officer or work for municipal, provincial or federal government (or treason).
I would think claiming INA 350 would have a better chance than receiving the certificate. There is no doubt that INA 350 existed at the time and it applied to you. They repealed it as being unconstitutional to protect US citizenship rights, not realizing that it would ensnare many people who intended to give up their US citizenship by remaining outside the US. That was the law since 1952. With the repeal of INA 350 and a similar section of INA 349, living your entire life outside of the US and ignoring them completely, while meaningful to us, is no longer an expatriating act to them.
I’m sorry to be so negative. I wish with all my heart that I am wrong. The idea here is that you weigh all our opinions and research with your own research to arrive at your own best guess.
You just posted that you never lived in the US after your daughter was born. I’m afraid you don’t understand yet. That doesn’t matter. Not in the slightest. If she was born after November 14 1986, she has US citizenship rights. I just don’t know if they are automatic. If she was born before that date, then you, as I, left the US too early for her to be a US citizen. The law is that _you_ had to live in the US either 5 years or 2 years after your 14th birthday, depending on _her_ birth date here in Canada. I guess if you got a CLN back-dated to before her birth, that would remove her US citizenship “rights”.
I was hoping that spending 3 months every year on Canada from age 14 & 17 and leaving the US for good before I was 17 (12 days) would make my daughter ok.
Cheryl As far as I can tell, you have a very good case that you relinquished Mar 2 1977. I know that the US did not permit dual citizenship at that time . A close relative of mine became canadian in 1973 and lost his US citizenship as a result. Your intent was clear. Go for it.
@KalC
Was your relative naturalized or did your relative register as a Canadian born abroad? The two are quite different legally. One involves an oath of allegiance to the Queen; the other does not.
@Cheryl
It’s still more than 2 years of residence after age 14 so it depends on when your daughter was born. But I don’t believe that the USA has ever attempted to enforce US citizenship obligations on someone born abroad who has never claimed it. If I’m wrong I’m hoping someone will cite evidence that I’m wrong.
@ Dash1729
explain?
Canadian Citizenship — Children Born Abroad
The proof of Canadian citizenship for a Canadian born abroad is a Canadian citizenship certificate. A child born outside Canada to a Canadian parent and meeting certain requirements is a Canadian citizen. However the child will not possess a birth certificate issued by a Canadian governmental authority and for proof of Canadian citizenship, the child will need to obtain a Canadian citizenship certificate. An application must be submitted to obtain this certificate. Although applications are processed in Canada, you may submit the application to a Canadian diplomatic office abroad.
@BA
Same question I asked @KalC–what happened on May 1, 1978? Did you naturalize as a Canadian or did you register your birth abroad to Canadian parents?
In any event, the procedure you mention in boldface is a purely bureaucratic procedure to document an already existing citizenship. It definitely doesn’t involve an oath of allegiance to the Queen or any other kind of oath to Canada and isn’t–by itself–a relinquishing act. More context is needed which is why I’m saying that @Cheryl’s situation isn’t a slam dunk.
IMHO @Cheryl ‘s chances are high enough that she should try for the CLN. It is worth a try.
And IMHO @Cheryl ‘s chances aren’t so high that she should be overconfident.
Does someone have actual experience with registering birth abroad–as opposed to naturalizing–being considered a relinquishing act?
@ DASH1729
SHE WAS AN ADULT… read the Expatriation rules…
(a) A person who is a national of the United
States whether by birth or naturalization, shall
lose his nationality by voluntarily performing
any of the following acts with the intention of
relinquishing United States nationality—
(1) obtaining naturalization in a foreign
state upon his own application or upon an application
filed by a duly authorized agent,
after having attained the age of eighteen
years; or
(2) taking an oath or making an affirmation
or other formal declaration of allegiance to a
foreign state or a political subdivision thereof,
after having attained the age of eighteen
years; or
@BA
But registering birth abroad is NOT naturalizing. That’s what I think you are missing. Among other things, the Canadian citizenship once granted is retroactive to birth so the citizenship wasn’t really acquired after age 18 even though the bureaucratic steps may have been taken in adulthood.
@ DASH1729
says you…
sure looks like Naturalizing to me…regardless…
Taken from Wikipedia:
Naturalization (or naturalisation) is the legal act or process by which a non-citizen in a country may acquire citizenship or nationality of that country. It may be done by a statute, without any effort on the part of the individual, or it may involve an application and approval by legal authorities.
Cheryl was not a citizen as the time limit for registering a birth abroad had expired in 1955. Cheryl naturalized in 1977 by statute without effort when the law changed by the Wikipedia definition.
@TrueNorth
What statute are you referring to?
Every person born outside Canada after 15 February 1977, who has a Canadian parent at the time of birth, is automatically a Canadian citizen by descent
I think you meant…
Cheryl was not a citizen as the time limit for registering a birth abroad had expired in 1955. Cheryl naturalized in 1977 by her own application
@TrueNorth / @BA
I think you are missing the point here.
The point here is not to split hairs over whether Canadian law, US law, or Wikipedia would define this as “naturalization”.
The point here is that usually a naturalized citizen of Canada takes an oath of allegiance to the Queen. That makes the intention to relinquish very clear and unequivocal. Cheryl will not have taken such an oath. She may well still be able to make the case that she intended to relinquish and if so all power to her. But the oath makes things a lot clearer and less ambiguous.
It would be helpful if, rather than splitting hairs over whether this should be considered naturalization, someone could point us and especially Cheryl to an individual who actually obtained a CLN on the basis of registration of birth abroad as an adult.
@ Dash1729
you are making up rules…. OATH is part 2 and is separated by OR not inclusive…
@BA
Yes part (1) and part (2) are separated by an OR but I’m referring to the following phrase which applies to both part (1) and part (2):
“any of the following acts with the intention of relinquishing United States nationality”
The USG never accepts anything without documentation. You have to document that “intention of relinquishing” in some way regardless of whether you fall under part (1) or part (2). The oath of allegiance to the Queen is a very good way to document that “intention to relinquish”. Without the oath one would need some other way of documenting “intention to relinquish” because that is required under both part (1) and part (2). That’s going to be Cheryl’s challenge but there might well be a way to do it.
Anyways I’m replying here for the purpose of helping @Cheryl–not, with all due respect, for the benefit of @BA or @TrueNorth–so I will wait until @Cheryl weighs in again before commenting further.
@Dash I did get it a bit mixed up.