Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@Mr. A. I don’t know for sure, but I think USXCanada has been to the dark side and back, yet remains in one piece. This puts him in a unique position to be able to provide much needed insight and encouragement, to those of us still floundering in the blackness.
Peachy You are correct. Intent is always a major factor in any relinquishing act. There is an opinion out there somewhere from a treasury lawyer that intent can be shown by such things as voting, holding a passport, owning property and so on. So an accidental American, who works for a Canadian gov’t and has done none of the above has shown ‘intent’
As we know, it was once an expatriating act to take another citizenship, but when this law changed, previous US citizens were allowed to re establish their US citizenships if it was not their intention to relinquish their US citizenship. I realize that the intention here was to apply the law fairly, but if someone had known that taking another citizenship would cause them to lose their US citizenship, would this not show intent?
@usxcanada,
ROTFLMAO ? I’m not familiar with that acronym.
In cases like mine — resident of Canada over 45 years, spent my entire adult career here, never lived or worked in the US since then, became a Canadian citizen 35 years ago, never voted there, held a US passport nor filed tax returns there since then — and those of accidental US citizens who have never lived or worked in the US, I think the IRS extraterritorial push now, and FATCA, are extortionate bluffs, except for people who have assets in the US they can seize. I don’t think they have a legal or moral leg to stand on outside the US, though IGAs by spineless governments like ours unfortunately seem to lend them legitimacy.
For me to begin filing paperwork to the IRS now would be to concede the legitimacy of their claims. I have a CLN from the US State Department attesting that I relinquished US citizenship 35 years ago. As far as I am concerned, that’s the end of my dealings with them.
@AnonAnon, quite right. You owe them nothing as you left the system long ago and they can go whistle if they think you still need to file. Ridiculous attitude if they try and take it.
@AnonAnon
ROFLMAO: Internet slang for Rolling On Floor Laughing My A$$ Off.
WhatAmI, Mr. A, WhiteKat, AnonAnon –
None of us can know if IRS thinks we are compliant, until SOL runs out. Assuming SOL is running. If it isn’t running, then we already are the other SOL. Because with IRS, famously, the rest is silence. (Plus Hodgenesque new laws.) At least until short-response-time bad news comes knocking at the door.
All I’ll say about my own extensive darkside trip (yes, WhiteKat) is years, costs, complexities, drudgery, minimized truck with complianceers, maximized respect for IRS, severance, and … fallback strategy. So far so good.
The purpose of my sallies is to jolt naivetées and to put a swerve on magic bullets. Only US persons with deficient drudgery should ever blink an eye.
Up the wrong creek is no place to shipwreck. Anchor at ease in the harbor of no state whatsoever. Juggle probabilities. Sail on with sketchy charts and Sauve qui peut.
usx,
Yes, I suppose that compliance is the wrong word when dealing with the IRS, as even Donald Rumsfeld doesn’t know if he’s tax compliant. Your cryptic answer does strongly suggest that you have been a filer of US tax returns – whether in the US, Canada or both one can only guess. Insight, as WhiteKat says, that some here could benefit from, including any experience with relinquishment.
Sigh. I’ve worked for the federal government for years but I had no intention of relinquishing US citizenship when I took my job. At that time dual citizenship seemed like a wonderful and fortunate privilege. And I’ve got a US passport though I use my Canadian one to cross the border even though I know I’m not “supposed” to. Fortunately it’s got my Canadian place of birth on it so I’ve been lucky . . . so far. I’m working at becoming compliant, but have been close to losing my mind in the process. I wonder now whether I should have even come out of the woodwork.
@Peacheykeen
You are going to hear varying opinions of what right and wrong, but what is important is that you make the right decisions from here forward. How did you become a US citizen and what have you done to come “compliant” so far?
@USXCanada, re:
“WhatAmI, Mr. A, WhiteKat, AnonAnon – None of us can know if IRS thinks we are compliant, until SOL runs out”
Who is ‘we’?
@bubblebustin – my parents were both US citizens. When I was about 21 they did something (I don’t even know what) to get the US to recognize my citizenship (and that of my 4 younger brothers and sisters.) It seemed a fantastic idea at the time and some of my siblings have taken advantage of it by living and working in the States. Not me, but I still carried the citizenship happily. Fast forward 25 years and I discover that I’ve been supposed to file US taxes these many years. I’ve filed back to 2009, but mistakes were made on the returns so I still feel like I need to fix things up. I’m not particularly afraid of the IRS , but I suffer some OCD like symptoms around telling the truth and this has been horrible for me.
Peachy. Just file going forward. It is impossible to not make some mistakes . You will avoid a world of pain.
@Peacheykeen
I know how you feel. No one likes being called a tax cheat. You said you filed back to 2009 and there were mistakes made. Did the IRS notify you of the mistakes? If not, I’m not going to suggest whether you should or shouldn’t bring them to the attention of the IRS. I guess it would depend on the nature of the mistake, and the possible ramifications of it. The IRS is in complete disarray, but who knows what the future brings as far as enforcement goes.
@bubblebustin – there were one or two things early on that the IRS contacted me about, but others that I’ve come to realize as this process moves along. One of the biggest ones was that the RESPs weren’t declared by the first accountant we worked with – this whole thing has been such a learning process. So that had to be fixed. We’ve spent thousands and likely have a few more to go before it’s all over. I will likely eventually renounce. I believe , from what I’ve read, that I am considered a dual citizen from birth, though I wasn’t registered until I was into early adulthood.
Hi Everyone. I have lived in Canada for 6 years as a permanent resident, and have no plans to move back to the US. I am in the process of applying for Canadian citizenship and would like to relinquish my US citizenship. Do I have to wait until I am granted my Canadian citizenship before I start this process, or when can I do this? I would like to relinquish vs. renounce at this point. Thank you for any advice.
@Peacheykeen
In for a dime, in for a dollar when it comes to resolving tax issues anywhere it seems. Unfortunately, had we known about our so-called tax obligations to the US, many of us could have planned accordingly. Robbery, I call it.
Canada made changes to its Citizenship Act in 2009 to allow certain foreign born children of Canadians to be Canadian citizens at birth. I am one, even though I had naturalized prior to this change. One benefit of being a dual at birth is that you will not be subject to the US exit tax, if applicable, should you choose to renounce US citizenship.
Hi, Nikki,
If your intent is to relinquish when you receive your Canadian citizenship, that (naturalizing as a citizen in a foreign country) will be your relinquishing act. At that point you need to visit a consulate to inform them of this and to receive your Certificate of Loss of Nationality. I am waiting for my Canuck card, as well.
Ok, thank you. So just to confirm, I need to wait until I have my Canadian passport in order to make an appointment to relinquish? At this point, yes, I definitely prefer relinquishing vs. renouncing. Will I still be subject to an exit tax if I relinquish? I would assume that I would…
@All, riddle me this.
What will happen if an undocumented relinquisher (no CLN) applies for a US Passport overseas and on page 1, crosses out the US Citizen statement and attaches the requisite statement that they “performed X with the intent of relinquishing their US Citizenship.
Will they;
1.) Issue a US Passport to someone who says they are no longer a US Citizen solely because they have not issued a CLN.
2.) Refuse the passport by sending a letter.
3.) Refuse the passport and complete a CLN for that person.
@Nikki – No, you don’t have to wait to make the appointment (which I have heard can take some time with the consulates dealing with a lot of relinquishments these days), but unfortunately there is no way to know when your citizenship will be finalized. I have been waiting a year, already, and it could be another month or another 18 months.
Renunciation is actually one type of relinquishment. It’s the only type that requires the help of a consular official – and costs $$$. I can only see this as being necessary for you if you wanted to relinquish before you receive your Canadian citizenship, which you absolutely can do but of course you would be stateless for awhile.
Regarding the exit tax – it depends on several factors. Take your time and do some careful research (fortunately you will have LOT of time while waiting for your card 🙂 ). Exit tax applies to “covered expatriates”. The criteria is defined by the IRS here. I don’t have large assets or a huge income so provided I file 5 years of taxes – and they don’t change the rules again while I am waiting! – I will not be considered a covered expatriate.
Apologies, @Nikki – you said passport and I assumed citizenship. On whether you have to wait for a Canadian passport, the answer is no unless you plan on traveling outside of the country since you will need to turn in your U.S. passport when you relinquish.
@George
2.
“When, as the result of an individual’s inquiry or an individual’s application for registration or a passport it comes to the attention of a U.S. consular officer that a U.S. national has performed an act made potentially expatriating by INA Sections 349(a)(1), 349(a)(2), 349(a)(3) or 349(a)(4) as described above, the consular officer will simply ask the applicant if he/she intended to relinquish U.S. nationality when performing the act. If the answer is no, the consular officer will certify that it was not the person’s intent to relinquish U.S. nationality and, consequently, find that the person has retained U.S. nationality.
Persons Who Wish to Relinquish U.S. Nationality
If the answer to the question regarding intent to relinquish nationality is yes, the person concerned will be asked to complete a questionnaire to ascertain his or her intent toward U.S. nationality. When the questionnaire is completed and the voluntary relinquishment statement is signed, the consular officer will proceed to prepare a Certificate of Loss of Nationality of the United States. The certificate will be forwarded to the Department of State for consideration and, if appropriate, approval.
An individual who has performed any of the acts made potentially expatriating by statute who wishes to lose U.S. nationality may do so by affirming in writing to a U.S. consular officer that the act was performed voluntarily with an intent to relinquish U.S. nationality. A U.S. national also has the option to formally renounce U.S. nationality abroad in accordance with INA Section 349 (a) (5) .”
Link to above:
http://travel.state.gov/content/travel/english/legal-considerations/us-citizenship-laws-policies/citizenship-and-dual-nationality.html
@Bubblebustin, The passport process is done through the post.
So you fill out the form they send you and confirm that you intended to relinquish.
You post it back to them.
Are they going to require you to come down to the consulate in person which could be a long ways away?
Right now they are creating a bottleneck on relinquishments with this whole process of coming in person for sometimes two visits.
I am also thinking about relinquishers who may have been turned down for a CLN at the consulate in person. If a person says straight up I relinquished, will that Consulate recommend the issuance of a passport? Its one thing to say no to a CLN but its another thing to say to a passport where the person plainly states they relinquished.