Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two

10,433 thoughts on “Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two”

1. The Mom. You have precisely 2 options. 1). Stop playing the game. Do nothing. They can’t touch you. Why would they even bother.?

   2). File 5 years of taxes. You renounced in ’13. File 2009-2012 now and 2013 next spring. At the same time next spring file 8854. You do not file the parts about net worth ad so on. You only sign the part that says you have filed 5 years of tax returns. the form doesn’t state when the 5 years ends. I.e. in a complete year or not. Therefore some will tell you to file 2008-2012 now and 2013 next spring for a partial year- your choice.
   Since you are a Canadian born dual, that is all you do to be free. That is if you want to keep playing the game.

2. My mistake, the above is actually for “Expatriation After June 3, 2004, and Before June 17, 2008”

   After June 16, 2008, it’s

   If you expatriated after June 16, 2008,
   attach Form 8854 to your income tax
   return (Form 1040 or Form 1040NR) for
   the year that includes your expatriation
   date, and file your return by the due
   date of your tax return (including
   extensions).

   Hmmm, I’m not sure when the tax clock stops ticking – when you renounce, or when you file 8854.

3. When you renounce. After that you are not a USC.

4. @Kalc
   So if I renounce on Jan 2 2014, I have until June 2015 to get compliant and file 8854.
   And in theory my compliant years would be 2014,2013,2012,2011,2010, where 2014 is a partial (almost non-existent) year?

   Thus, all else being equal, renouncing Jan 2 2014 would be preferable to renouncing Dec 29 2013, right?

5. I’m neither a lawyer nor an accountant. I don’t know the answer for sure. It’s one or t’other.

6. I just looked at it again. It says 5 years ending before you expropriate. It looks like they mean complete yrs. It follows that if you expropriate Jan 2 2014, they would want 2009-2013.

7. I believe they want five complete years plus the partial year

8. Thanks, everyone. I feel like I’m cramming for exams again. Not a good feeling.

   @KalC…my husband is a very large part of my desire not to lay low. We’ve had plans for a long time, that non-compliance would kill. Additionally, once I got past my anger of having to renounce, I realized I can’t take the stress of non-compliance. I have always been compliant in Canada. I was the 18 year old, declaring my actual tips to RevCan. LOL I also can’t take the worry of future changes, both US, and Canadian.

   I realize my anger is surely not over, but if the US is beginning to realize the effect on we minnows (streamlined), and be responsible in not penalizing low risk for evasion, I want to be compliant, and be free to travel. Being landlocked in Canada for the winters, as I age, is not appealing, and I have no desire to visit Europe in the winter. Living next door to the US (I can see them if I walk down my street one block), I just don’t see any other way, without feeling like a prisoner, mentally, emotionally, and physically, in my own country.

9. Hi, would appreciate your opinions on the followings:
   1) is Renunciation a 14th amendment right?!
   2) the legal grounds for denial of Renunciation and return one’s passport are that the Renunciation act was not intentional, non-voluntary (under duress), lack of mental capacity, or untruthful disclosure of forms signed during the Renunciation process, any others?
   3) do you file the 8854 after the Renunciation ceremony? or after the receipt of CLN?

   thank you

10. @dad,

    Offhand, I couldn’t answer your questions. A search produced this:

    re: 1) is Renunciation a 14th amendment right?!
    14th Amendment — http://blackhistory.com/cgi-bin/blog.cgi?blog_id=60916&cid=54

    …The 14th Amendment does not explicitly provide any procedure for loss of United States citizenship. Loss of U.S. citizenship is possible only under the following circumstances: Fraud in the naturalization process. Technically, however, this is not loss of citizenship, but rather a voiding of the purported naturalization and a declaration that the immigrant never was a U.S. citizen, or by voluntary relinquishment of citizenship. This may be accomplished either through renunciation procedures specially established by the State Department or through other actions which demonstrate an intention to give up U.S. citizenship.

    For a long time, voluntary acquisition or exercise of a foreign citizenship was considered sufficient cause for revocation of U.S. citizenship. This concept was enshrined in a series of treaties between the United States and other countries. However, the Supreme Court overturned this concept in a 1967 case, Afroyim v. Rusk—as well as a 1980 case, Vance v. Terrazas—holding that the citizenship clause of the 14th Amendment barred Congress from exercising this sort of authority to revoke citizenship.
    …

    Re: 2) the legal grounds for denial of Renunciation and return one’s passport are that the Renunciation act was not intentional, non-voluntary (under duress), lack of mental capacity, or untruthful disclosure of forms signed during the Renunciation process, any others?
    http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_777.html

    …
    In accordance with Section 358 of the Immigration and Nationality Act, while persons seeking to renounce U.S. citizenship submit the necessary documentation to a U.S. consular officer at a U.S. Foreign Service post abroad, the decision whether to approve the renunciation is made by the Department of State in Washington, D.C. Accordingly, unless and until a certificate of loss of nationality is approved by the U.S. Department of State, the oath of renunciation, even though signed by the individual is not/not legally effective in terminating the person’s U.S. citizenship.

    In order for a renunciation under Section 349(a)(5) to be effective, all of the conditions of the statute must be met. In other words, a person wishing to renounce American citizenship must appear in person and sign an oath of renunciation before a U.S. consular or diplomatic officer abroad, generally at an American Embassy or Consulate. Moreover, Section 349(b) of the Act provides that:

    Any person who commits or performs, or who has committed or performed, any act of expatriation under the provisions of this of any other Act shall be presumed to have done so voluntarily, but such presumption may be rebutted upon a showing, by a preponderance of the evidence, that the act or acts committed or performed were not done voluntarily.

    In addition, please be aware that:

    The U.S. Department of State has concluded that the intention to relinquish U.S. nationality required for purposes of finding loss of nationality under Section 349(a) of the INA does not exist where a renunciant plans or claims a right to continue to reside in the United States, unless the renunciant demonstrates that residence will be as an alien documented properly under U.S. law.

    Renunciations which are not in the form prescribed by the Secretary of State have no legal effect. Because of the way in which Section 349(a)(5) is written and interpreted, Americans cannot effectively renounce their citizenship by mail, through an agent or parent, or while in the United States. Section 349(a)(6) provides for renunciation of United States citizenship under certain narrow circumstances in the United States strictly defined by statute. Questions concerning renunciation of American citizenship under Section 349(a)(6) should be addressed to the Attorney General or the Department of Homeland Security.

    Persons who contemplate renunciation of U.S. nationality should be aware that, unless they already possess a foreign nationality or are assured of acquiring another nationality shortly after completing their renunciation, severe hardship to them could result. In the absence of a second nationality, those individuals would become stateless. As stateless persons, they would not be entitled to the protection of any government. They might also find it difficult or impossible to travel as they would probably not be entitled to a passport from any country. Further, a person who has renounced U.S. nationality will be required to apply for a visa to travel to the United States, just as other aliens do. If found ineligible for a visa, a renunciant could be barred from the United States. Renunciation of American citizenship does not necessarily prevent a former citizen’s deportation from a foreign country to the United States as an alien.

    Persons considering renunciation should also be aware that the fact that they have renounced U.S. nationality may have no effect whatsoever on their U.S. tax or military service obligations. Nor will it allow them to escape possible prosecution for crimes which they may have committed in the United States, or repayment of financial obligations previously incurred in the United States or incurred as a United States citizen abroad. Questions about these matters should be directed to the government agency concerned.

    Those persons who, after careful consideration of the contents of this letter and its enclosures, desire to renounce U.S. citizenship may contact the U.S. embassy to make an appointment, bearing in mind that they will be asked to demonstrate proof of foreign residence, or failing that, evidence that they intend to enter the United States as an alien with documentation to that effect. Moreover, a person in possession of a U.S. passport will be asked to submit that passport to the U.S. consular officer for cancellation. If the certificate of loss of nationality is approved by the U.S. Department of State, the individual’s name will be entered in the Department’s name check system and they will be ineligible for U.S. passports in the future.

    As previously stated, persons contemplating renunciation of U.S. citizenship are reminded that renunciation is irrevocable, except as provided in Section 351 of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1483), and cannot be cancelled or set aside absent successful administrative or judicial appeal.

    If you have any questions, contact a U.S. consular officer at the U.S. embassy or the Department of State (CA/OCS/L) at:

    Express Mail:
    Director
    Overseas Citizens Services, Office of Legal Affairs (CA/OCS/L)
    Overseas Citizens Services
    Bureau of Consular Affairs
    U.S. Department of State
    4th Floor
    2100 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W.
    Washington, D.C. 20037
    Phone: 202-736-9110
    Fax: 202-736-9111

    Regular Mail
    Director
    Overseas Citizens Services, Office of Legal Affairs (CA/OCS/L)
    Overseas Citizens Services
    Bureau of Consular Affairs
    U.S. Department of State
    SA-29, 4th Floor
    Washington, D.C. 20520

    Re: 3) do you file the 8854 after the Renunciation ceremony? or after the receipt of CLN?
    2012 Instructions for Form 8854. For expatriation in 2012, you will have to complete Parts I, IV and V — http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i8854.pdf or http://www.irs.gov/instructions/i8854/ar01.html (easier to follow) / and the Form 8854 — http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f8854.pdf

    For expatriations in 2012, the 8854 (Sections I, IV and V) to be filed with income tax return for (partial year) 2012, due June 17, 2013*, confirming that one has met tax requirements for the five preceding years: 2012 (until renunciation or day before renunciation); 2011, 2010, 2009, 2008, 2007

    *There is an automatic two-month extension to file and pay if you live outside the US. Form 1040 is due on June 17, 2013 for calendar year taxpayers living
    abroad (like Canada).

11. @tdott,

    I was really nervous about this at first. But there are some renunciants who fall under different requirements than those who relinquish/renounce after 2008. The IRS just wants to use the same form, so the wording is misleading.
    The 8854 is due at the same time as the 1040/1040NR.

12. Overseas Exile (blog): “US expat evacuations: not what people think”

    An excellent article from Overseas Exile that points out the bullshit argument commonly used by homelanders to justify citizenship-based taxation for ex-pats — “if shit hits the fan the US will send the Marines to come to your rescue.” Yeah right!

    http://www.overseas-exile.com/2013/03/us-expat-evacuations-not-what-people.html

    From the blog:

    “If commercial carriers are operating, the Embassy will recommend that you depart on your own and at your own expense. If you don’t have money to pay the fare, the Embassy can help you contact family and friends and assist in transferring money from them.”

    “In extreme circumstances, a destitute American wishing to return to the U.S. may qualify for a repatriation loan. The conditions for making such loans are stringent, and your passport will be limited until you repay the loan.”

13. @ tdott – It depends on whether you want to get the whole thing out of your life promptly or give yourself extra time to pull paperwork together.

14. Just wanted to pass on this link, as I hadn’t seen it before (not an endorsement!): http://www.expatriationcopesthesia.com

    No doubt this will be a fast growing market.

15. Interesting site, not amused. Thanks.

    I wonder — just what is “expertise in (nonembassy- visit)Sections 1-4* expatriations / renunciation of US citizenship?

    Something new in expatriations?

    It says this:

    Our Expats Manual was last updated on Monday 18 March 2013

    at http://www.expatinfodesk.com/expat-guide/relinquishing-citizenship/renunciating-your-us-passport/five-steps-to-renunciating-your-us-passport/ and includes this statement (which I haven’t seen before):

    STEP 3: Book Your Renunciation Appointment
    Ideally you would book your appointment at the embassy or consulate in the country (and possibly city) where you plan to live once you renounce your passport. However, other embassies and consulates will take you, so it pays to “appointment shop” as the wait times can fluctuate greatly among locations. When you book the appointment, make sure to indicate how many people are renouncing US citizenship, if it’s more than one. If you don’t want to book the appointment yourself, you can have your expat lawyer do it for you. However, having a lawyer book the appointment for you can delay the process in some places, as they may require written proof that your lawyer represents you. They ask for this proof via Form G-28 http://www.uscis.gov/files/form/g-28.pdf.

    *8 USC § 1481 – Loss of nationality by native-born or naturalized …
    Title 8 › Chapter 12 › Subchapter III › Part III
    (1) obtaining naturalization in a foreign state upon his own application or upon …. 3, § 349,66 Stat. … 163, known as the Immigration and Nationality Act, which is classified … L. 97–116struck out “(a)” designation as added by section 4 ofPub.and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C.1481(a)(1)–(4)
    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1481

    USCPrelim is a preliminary release and may be subject to further revision before it is released again as a final version.

    Current through Pub. L. 112-238. (See Public Laws for the current Congress.)

    (a) A person who is a national of the United States whether by birth or naturalization, shall lose his nationality by voluntarily performing any of the following acts with the intention of relinquishing United States nationality—
    (1) obtaining naturalization in a foreign state upon his own application or upon an application filed by a duly authorized agent, after having attained the age of eighteen years; or
    (2) taking an oath or making an affirmation or other formal declaration of allegiance to a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after having attained the age of eighteen years; or
    (3) entering, or serving in, the armed forces of a foreign state if
    (A) such armed forces are engaged in hostilities against the United States, or
    (B) such persons serve as a commissioned or non-commissioned officer; or
    (4)
    (A) accepting, serving in, or performing the duties of any office, post, or employment under the government of a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after attaining the age of eighteen years if he has or acquires the nationality of such foreign state; or
    (B) accepting, serving in, or performing the duties of any office, post, or employment under the government of a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after attaining the age of eighteen years for which office, post, or employment an oath, affirmation, or declaration of allegiance is required; or
    (5) making a formal renunciation of nationality before a diplomatic or consular officer of the United States in a foreign state, in such form as may be prescribed by the Secretary of State; or
    (6) making in the United States a formal written renunciation of nationality in such form as may be prescribed by, and before such officer as may be designated by, the Attorney General, whenever the United States shall be in a state of war and the Attorney General shall approve such renunciation as not contrary to the interests of national defense; or
    (7) committing any act of treason against, or attempting by force to overthrow, or bearing arms against, the United States, violating or conspiring to violate any of the provisions of section 2383 of title 18, or willfully performing any act in violation of section 2385 of title 18, or violating section 2384 of title 18 by engaging in a conspiracy to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, if and when he is convicted thereof by a court martial or by a court of competent jurisdiction.
    (b) Whenever the loss of United States nationality is put in issue in any action or proceeding commenced on or after September 26, 1961 under, or by virtue of, the provisions of this chapter or any other Act, the burden shall be upon the person or party claiming that such loss occurred, to establish such claim by a preponderance of the evidence. Any person who commits or performs, or who has committed or performed, any act of expatriation under the provisions of this chapter or any other Act shall be presumed to have done so voluntarily, but such presumption may be rebutted upon a showing, by a preponderance of the evidence, that the act or acts committed or performed were not done voluntarily.
    LII has no control over and does not endorse any external Internet site that contains links to or references LII.

16. @ NotAmused and Calgary,

    I’ve seen that site, Copathesia, before, when they were trying to drum up business on another forum. That’s very misleading because there is no such thing as a “section 1-4 nonembassy visit expatriation.” If one relinquishes under subs (1)-(4), one still has to attend at an embassy/consulate if one wants to get a CLN. I was also struck by the anonymity of this consulant’s “About Us” and “Contact” pages. I hope people on the net use their common sense and be very cautious of using consulting services. I think we’ll be seeing more of them starting up.

    I also wish people would save their money and avoid paying online sites where lawyers answer questions for $$. I’ve noticed that although the questions are answered by professionals, these professionals do not necessarily know much about the niche field of expatriation. So far, I’ve seen at best they give the person a link to a government site that’s very easy to find, and at worst, inaccurate information to long-ago relinquishers, telling them that they should renounce.

17. Very good advice — thanks, Pacifica!

18. @pacifica777
    I agree, their website doesn’t exactly instill a sense of trust in their competence. Here in Germany, one is required to have a page called Impressum in which the name, address, tax ID, etc. are clearly stated. Copathesia, in contrast, is completely anonymous. No names, no address, nothing.

    I do find it interesting, however, that there appears to be a growing market for this kind of thing. Whether they are ‘helpful’ or not is, of course, a matter of debate. I did all the research myself for my renunciation/naturalization and didn’t spend a cent for professional advice, but I know there are many people out there who are simply not in a position to go it alone. I hope those folks will find competent help from professionals who are not just out to make a quick buck. Wishful thinking? Perhaps.

19. @ NotAmused,

    I hope those folks [“who are not in a position to go it alone”] will find competent help from professionals who are not just out to make a quick buck. Wishful thinking? Perhaps.

    Hopefully, it’s not wishful thinking. But it can be a problem with so relatively few competent professionals currently, it being sort of a “new” niche area of practice. However, I think if a person, who feels the need for professional help, chooses well, a professional can be useful for them and worth the money

    Hopefully the person has done a fair bit of reading before deciding they need professional help, so they know if they actually do need one – and also so that, if they choose to use a pro, they, themself, know enough to be able to evaluate if the pro they’re thinking of hiring really knows the subject – it’s so much easier to find a good competent lawyer if you’re just getting divorced or charged with burglary or something.

    I found that site interesting, as you did, in terms of it seems to be indicative of a growing market for this kind of thing — when such vague or questionable consultant firms start cropping up, a sign of the times.

    So, I hope that people with straightforward situations pick up the knowledge and have the confidence to go it alone (certainly the DoS side is usually very straightforward), and those who need professional assistance are very careful and find good competent help.

20. Looks like a group of scaremongering con artists to me. There’s isn’t any way to avoid an Embassy visit so it’s pure con.

    I can’t see any point in getting a lawyer to make the appointment for you, he/she can’t take the Oath on your behalf so you still have to go to the Embassy.

21. Well, I wasn’t expecting this:

    owner-addr: Unit 12A, Barrowside Business Park
    owner-addr: Sleaty Road
    owner-city: Graiguecullen
    owner-province: Co. Carlow

    As far as I can tell it’s run out in back of a lumberyard:

    https://maps.google.ca/maps?q=Unit+12A,+Barrowside+Business+Park+Graiguecullen+Co.+Carlow&hl=en&ll=52.841567,-6.939132&spn=0.002832,0.008256&sll=52.838084,-6.94057&sspn=0.022657,0.066047&t=h&hnear=Unit+10A,+Sleaty+Rd,+Graiguecullen,+County+Carlow,+Ireland&z=18&layer=c&cbll=52.841484,-6.939061&panoid=SfES6vEtn4A58tK64B_xFw&cbp=12,75.13,,0,0.53

    There’s a real danger of identity theft in this kind of situation – I suspect they’d ask you for all kinds of personal information – passport numbers, birthdate and so on – in a pseudo-official way and disappear.

22. Well done Broken Man. I wonder how many people have already been fleeced of hard earned cash and their most personal details. Good little money earner for the IRA I’d say.

23. Some information on Renunciation & Relinquishment of Citizenship from US Embassy and Consulate websites:

    Each Embassy and Consulate website is different. Some provide more information on renouncing & relinquishing citizenship than others. Below are links to some of the more informative ones:

    EUROPE:

    http://london.usembassy.gov/cons_new/acs/passports/renunciation.html

    http://germany.usembassy.gov/acs/citizenship/renounce/

    http://bern.usembassy.gov/service/renunciation5.html

    http://amsterdam.usconsulate.gov/dual_nationality2/renunciation-of-u2.s.-citizenship

    http://norway.usembassy.gov/renounce.html

    http://denmark.usembassy.gov/other_services/renunciation-of-citizenship.html

    http://athens.usembassy.gov/renunciation.html

    ASIA & OCEANIA:

    http://canberra.usembassy.gov/renunciation.html

    http://singapore.usembassy.gov/renouncing-us-citzenship.html

    http://shanghai.usembassy-china.org.cn/renounce.html

    http://guangzhou.usembassy-china.org.cn/service/renunciation-of-u.s.-citizenship

    http://seoul.usembassy.gov/acs_cln.html

    http://hongkong.usconsulate.gov/acs_renunciation.html

    http://chengdu.usembassy-china.org.cn/service/other-services/renuncitation-of-u.s.-citizens

    http://www.philippine-embassy.org.sg/consular/citizenship/renunciation/

    MIDDLE EAST:

    http://kuwait.usembassy.gov/renunciation.html

    http://istanbul.usconsulate.gov/renunciation_of_citizenship.html

    THE AMERICAS & CARIBBEAN:

    http://hamilton.usconsulate.gov/renunciation_.html

    http://kingston.usembassy.gov/renunciations.html

    AFRICA: Very little information available

24. @ Halifax Pier,

    There’s long been some pretty shady outfits in the immigration field, so they’ll probably be popping up in the expatriation field now. I was thinking of rip-offs re money, but that’s a good point you make about the danger of identity theft – can be a lot more than even money at stake.

25. @ Abused Expat,

    That’s really neat, Abused Expat, that you looked up all those consulate websites! Thanks for sharing the links!

    I think I’ll add that to the Links page in the Consulate Report Directory, with a hat tip of course, and keep an eye out as presumably more consulates will be having such page (they seem to have been increasing since 2011). I’ve visited some of those pages before, but it never occurred to me to make a list of links. That can be really useful and convenient for people using the Directory. Thanks much!

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