Renunciation and Relinquishment Questions – Part 2 of 2
This is a continuation of Renunciation and Relinquishment Questions – Part 1 of 2
Ask your questions about Renunciation here.
This thread will be focused closely on renunciation questions and answers. If the conversation starts to ramble, those comments will be moved to another thread.
Sub-topics (more will be added as they occur):
Farrell v. Tillerson. Plaintiff is contesting Bern Embassy’s rejection of his CLN application due to his not having appeared in person at the embassy and his having been issued a passport after the relinquishing act.
Previous Renunciation Threads:
Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions)
These above two lines are not showing as links on my screen, but they do work as links.
@byebye and Wasus
Wasus does not need to renounce, he has already relinquished his US citizenship back in 2000 when he became a Canadian with the ‘intention’ of relinquishing his US citizenship. He has done nothing that would contradict that. He has not used or applied for a US passport or voted in a US election or filed US taxes.
He can document this relinquishment by applying for backdated cln. The rules were different pre 2004 such that one did not have to file US taxes after relinquishing. He should not renounce with the tax baggage that is meant to come with that. He has to make that clear at the embassy. Many from Brock have successfully done a backdated relinquishment and filed reports of their experience on the Brock website.
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/06/19/if-your-expatriation-date-is-before-2004-the-rules-are-different/
What I was getting at earlier is this: @wasus has a paranoid family problem, not a US tax or FATCA problem. If @wasus renounces then in theory he still has an obligation to make a formal exit from the US tax system. Any sensible person without US assets would ignore this obligation, but the family may think otherwise – particularly as both Canadian-born sons put themselves through that process, in one case quite needlessly. Whereas if @wasus can successfully document pre-2004 relinquishment, he has no obligation to file any tax paperwork (though if his family may not believe this interpretation of the law, the problem persists).
Regarding your renunciation, it’s unusual that the embassy wants you to complete DS-4079. It is not required for renunciation, most consulates do not ask for it. If you were offended by it, you could politely refuse.
The consulate here was very friendly and non-judgmental. They do a lot of these now, they know the drill. You give your bland reason, they reply with “so you just want to simplify your life then?” and move on. It’s completely generic.
I didn’t feel the least bit weird. It was time. I’m an Accidental by birth who spent a few years in the US studying and working many decades ago. There was never an emotional connection, and over time I’ve become increasingly estranged from the place. After 2016 I lost all interest in ever setting foot south of the border. (In my darker moments I’m pretty convinced that the US is a failing democracy well on its way to becoming a racist Gilead – authoritarian theocratic white nationalist minority rule.)
In the end my decision to renounce was purely pragmatic: I needed a CLN to calm down my parents and the folks who handle their estate. None of them have asked to see the CLN, nor have they asked about tax compliance. Job done.
@Heidi You are correct about the distinction. I hope @Wasus can apply for his backdated CLN, move on with his life, and assuage the family’s largely unfounded concerns.
@RonHenderson You are right that it is mostly an imaginary problem invented by the family. It does amaze me how difficult it is to reason with people despite presenting them with incontrovertible evidence. My wife is more relaxed about it than your family or Wasus’s, but she has a combination of concerns oscillating between the real and unfounded. She prefers that I renounce, but does not want to pressure me because it is an intensely personal decision. We registered our last child as a US citizen earlier this month and she pointed out how different I was to the stereotypical Americans in front of us who were also registering the birth of their infant.
I did not really want to object to the form DS-4079 or do anything to complicate matters given that most US embassies have long waiting lists etc. I understand the pragmatism behind your decision. You might find it humorous that a libertarian fellow I know resigned because of 2016, MAGA, and America First, albeit primarily because Trump and his tax policies made things extremely complicated for US persons abroad who owned non-US corporations.
I am going to submit something about my renunciation for the report on this site and probably do another essay regarding the topic. Thanks for sharing your experience. I plan to be in Canada sometime this year. I am happy to invite you for a meal and discussion on the political stuff :).
Do report on your experience and yes, if you’re in the western bit of Canada (the “nice apartment above a meth lab” as our country has been called) let me know – or Berlin if the timing is right.
@ByeByeUSA
Regarding the children, depending on how it plays out with travel to the US and the need for passports, you might be wise to put those CRBA documents in a secure location and never tell the kids, so they can answer “no” with a clear conscience to any FATCA questions, and won’t otherwise worry about tax obligations. If they express any interest in moving to the US for work or study, then it’s “oh by the way, you have citizenship if you need it…”
My own child was born outside the US but I obtained a CRBA and baby passport, not knowing better at the time (no SSN though). Prior to their turning 18 we had a discussion about this, laying out the options. They agreed that the sensible course of action was to conceal their US citizenship and always answer “no” to FATCA questions, but every time it happens I receive a nervous text with “should I really say no?” and a screenshot of whatever form they are looking at. I answer “why are you even asking?” but I sympathize with the nervousness.
@RonHenderson The plan was to go to Toronto and see a couple close friends on the way to the US to take care of some personal business. I also owe a visit to Heidi, but my friend who lives near her has found a girlfriend close to me. If you are in Berlin at some point, then it is easy for me to travel there.
The plan is to place the CRBA and US passports in safe storage and deal with the topic when the children are old enough to comprehend things. I do not want to take the choice away from the kids.
From my wife’s experience, the Swiss government sends a publication to its citizens abroad and updates them on what is happening in Switzerland. It is a completely different attitude compared to the US government’s position towards US persons abroad. I can imagine Canada being much nicer to its citizens who go abroad.
I am just curious whether you share my view that the renunciation delays ostensibly due to COVID-19 are punitive measures enacted by people at the top of the US government to punish those wishing to renounce or avoid embarrassment at the sheer numbers of people renouncing rather than an honest attempt to slow the spread of the virus. I really feel for those who had bank accounts frozen or lives placed on hold wanting to acquire other citizenships that required them to renounce their US citizenship. I never suffered in this way because of FATCA and overzealous banks, but I do now have some Russian GDRs frozen in London due to sanctions (general and not against me personally). I won’t open this can of worms :).
I will definitely share my story when I conclude this process next month. A friend of mine sent me this news story in 2013 regarding FATCA etc. Unfortunately, it is in German. https://www.srf.ch/play/tv/-/video/-?urn=urn:srf:video:49e6a744-ee42-4d23-aed9-01eb3e025bfe. I won’t go public as the man did in the report. Nonetheless, it is shocking that nothing has changed since then. This fellow who served in the US military and dutifully filed his tax return as a US person abroad felt compelled to renounce because the bank froze his accounts and he feared making some mistake on the complex tax returns and landing in trouble.
As this disucssion has veered away from a particular question, I copied the above comment and its replies to the Renunciation Discucssion Thread.
@Bye-Bye USA, it sounds like a good idea to me, too, to just fill out the 4079, when renouncing.
It’s better, IMO, to go along with things, when renouncing/relinquishing, unless something is really problematic and/or clearly against DoS rules (using the 4079 with renunciations is discouraged but not forbidden).
I definitely feel it’s important stand your ground, though, if a matter is likely to have bearing on your case or is something disturbing that is against the rules or improper.
The 4079 has no bearing on a renunciation and, though they’ve come into play in relinquishments, I haven’t heard of one causing problems for a renunciant.
Renunciations usually go very smoothly (though and they take much too long and its an overcomplicated hassle). Hope yours goes well and I’ll look forward to your report.
@Pacifica: Sorry for going off topic. RonHenderson is one of the online people I like the most despite our different outlooks.
I agree with what you say regarding form 4079 and I do not think it will really affect my case. I am just someone with some US tax skeletons in my closet who is also subject to the Exit Tax who wants closure and peace of mind. I know renunciation does not absolve one of any tax transgressions, but mine are nothing like Oleg Tinkhov. I am just trying to make things straightforward with an embassy that is flexible with dates and does not have massive waiting lists like Switzerland does.
https://www.thelocal.ch/20220620/i-feel-trapped-hundreds-of-us-citizens-in-switzerland-waiting-to-renounce-citizenship/
The embassy shouldn’t look at or ask about anything to do with taxes – past, present or future – beyond reminding you that renunciation won’t magically make past tax debts disappear. The State Department does not care about your relationship with the IRS.
The tax question on D-4079 is there to establish whether one continued to act as a US citizen after having committed a relinquishing act at some point in the past – common actions that suggest one still believed one’s self to be a US citizen include voting, filing a tax return or renewing a passport. There’s no purpose to asking these questions of someone who is renouncing that very day, but if the consular officials want some extra paperwork to process, do what you can to make them happy.
I have no idea why the Canadian consulates ask for an SSN in their own pre-screening form, since it’s not required on DS-4080 or DS-4081. They did not blink when I said I “don’t have it” at the appointment. Not something I was prepared to give them, just to be on the safe side.
@ Bye Bye USA,
No problem, the discussion got off topic for this Q and A thread, but it’s still a “CBT/FATCA/Citizenship” topic.
Re wait times at various locations, I don’t remember if you’ve seen this chart.
I see the Canada wait time info is out of date on the chart (I’m going to contact the webmaster), but I think it’s generally a pretty useful tool and hope it gets more contributors to expand the number of countries covered.
@ Ron,
I second that. I’ve been involved in some cases where people were asked and even harassed about tax. Upon learning of these occurrences, higher-ups made these consulates “stick to the script” and stop doing it, just do a pro forma reminder (and if the renunciant brings up tax, don’t get involved, tell them to contact IRS).
DoS really doesn’t care about tax, except for the occasional jerk who wants to cause trouble for people, but in my experience, DoS will squelch them if made aware of it. And I get the impression they’ve put out some blanket directives on the topic as it rarely has come up after the early years.
Hello, I am starting my renunciation paperwork. Wondering if I can check in here periodically to get confirmation of whether I’m doing everything right?
I was born in the US but left with my parents at 6 months of age. Have never had a SSN, have never had a US passport, have never voted in a US election, etc.
I worked for our provincial government for 30 years. When filling out the DS 4070, it asks “Did you take an oath, affirmation, declaration or allegiance in connection with the job? If yes, describe the oath,
affirmation, or declaration of allegiance.” Does anyone know if it’s worth including the wording of the oath for Provincial Office? Or do they only care about Federal government service?
Another question … do you really have to send them your original documents??? I hesitate to do that, given that the process may take months, meaning I won’t have access to these documents (e.g. marriage certificate, birth certificate, certificate of Canadian Citizenship) for other purposes, if needed, during the time they are with the US government. For those of you who have done this before, did you get all your documents back??? Did you order extra copies of each doc so that you still keep a copy in your own records?
[The form says: “You must submit ORIGINAL documents or copies certified by the custodian of the record. Generally, we will return your documents after we have seen them. We cannot accept photocopies or notarized copies of documents.”]
Hi everyone, I just realized that the question I posted earlier today about Provincial Government employment, is basically the same thing I posted back in February. I’m sorry, I only just now saw some of your responses. Thanks to those who did responded (@Ron, @Pacifica, @Portland). I appreciate your guidance, and am sorry that I didn’t see your answers earlier.
My father died in January, which is probably why I was distracted in February. I also have to admit that I find it a little difficult navigating the discussion boards on this site (if you have any tips for me, let me know!). I did subscribe to be notified of follow up comments this time, maybe that will help.
My goal is to get my paperwork completed and submitted by the end of July!! This has been hanging over me for far too long, but the last 2 years were taken up with caregiving for my dad.
Thanks for the support everyone! I’ll keep you posted on my progress.
Hi Hannah,
Welcome back. Sorry to hear about your father.
Re:
Which form are you seeing that on? So far, Dept of State has been asking for scanned copies of personal documents to be submitted with the CLN application; and originals to be brought to the appointment so they can confirm the validity of these file copies. They don’t keep the original documents you bring to you appointment, except if the person has a US passport, they keep that (7 FAM 1227(e)).
@Hannah
Is there any particular reason why you’re trying to document past relinquishment instead of simply renouncing? I assume that’s what you’re doing otherwise you wouldn’t be talking about having worked for a provincial government. (If you are only renouncing, government service is not relevant.) It sounds like you are looking at DS-4079, which you don’t need to renounce, only for relinquishment.
I was not asked to supply original documents for renunciation earlier this year. If I recall correctly, I sent them a scan of my birth certificate and both US and Canadian passports, then brought the originals to the appointment. Nothing else – no marriage certificate, Canadian citizenship certificate or any other document.
The paperwork is quite simple. For renunciation it’s a DS-4080 and DS-4081 form plus the embassy’s own screening form. Takes all of 15 minutes to complete. You don’t need to be specific about dates and addresses – I only put down the years I’d spent in the US and the city I’d last lived in, and they were fine with that. I didn’t supply an SSN either.
A U.S. Citizen renunciant is reporting on a Switzerland message board:
1. Waited two years to get a renunciation appointment at the Bern Embassy.
2. CLN arrived within two weeks of renunciation appointment.
3. Current wait time for a renunciation appointment is approx. one year.
The Biden administration is doing its best to keep the doors blocked!
Hi all, Thanks for your responses @Ron Henderson and @Pacifica777.
So, it turns out the form I was trying to fill out on Saturday was the DS-4079, not DS-4070. Sorry for that confusion. I was using that one based on some searches on this site and what I had read on the US Government website. However, then I sent an email to the consulate (should have done that first!).
I got this information sent back:
***Email from CanadaCLNInquiries@state.gov***
If you are renouncing your U.S. citizenship, the following forms are required:
Questionnaire (attached as a Word document)
Form DS-4080 https://eforms.state.gov/Forms/ds4080.pdf
Form DS-4081 https://eforms.state.gov/Forms/ds4081.pdf
Scanned copies (preferably in PDF format) of the following items:
(a) Your most recent U.S. passport and, if you have ever been issued one, your Consular Report of Birth Abroad, Certificate of U.S. Citizenship, or Certificate of U.S. Naturalization.
(2) Your U.S. birth certificate as evidence of U.S. citizenship, if you do not have one of the citizenship documents listed above.
(3) Valid Canadian passport. If you do not have a valid Canadian passport please bring original evidence of your other (non-U.S.) citizenship.
(4) Evidence of name changes, if applicable (usually marriage certificates or official name change document).
***End of Email***
Both of the DS forms are very short, but the Questionnaire does ask more questions. I’m posting the questions below, in case it’s helpful for anyone else.
Based on the feedback from Ron and others I’m just going to renounce, not try to establish grounds for relinquishing. As you say, it looks much simpler and the cost is the same. 🙂
***Loss of Nationality Questionnaire***
Please fill out this questionnaire pertaining to information needed to complete a Certificate of Loss of Nationality and accompanying Department of State loss of nationality documents, and submit by email with your appointment request. When you are ready for your appointment, please email CanadaCLNAppointments@state.gov.
Full name:
All Former Names:
U.S. Social Security Number:
Date & Place of Birth:
Date/Place of U.S. Naturalization (if applicable):
List other nationalities, how acquired (birth or naturalization), and the date of acquisition.
Current Address:
Telephone:
Email:
Dates Resided in the United States:
Last Address in the United States:
Are you providing a separate written statement regarding your loss of U.S. nationality in addition to the Statement of Understanding (DS-4081)? YES ☐ No ☐
When you sign the forms, will you swear or affirm before the consular officer? Swear ☐ Affirm ☐
Are you requesting an appointment to renounce U.S. citizenship, or, documenting a previous relinquishment? RENOUNCE ☐ RELINQUISHMENT ☐ (include scans of supporting documents)
Click Here to learn about the difference between relinquishment and renunciation.
If documenting a previous relinquishment, please bring to your appointment evidence of the potentially expatriating act such as a foreign naturalization certificate, copy of the foreign oath of allegiance, or a letter or other document evidencing foreign government employment or military service.
Please provide your top 2 choices for where in Canada you wish to attend your Loss of Nationality appointment. Choose a 2nd choice or Any Available Post in Canada if you are willing to travel to that post.
***End of Questionnaire***
Aaaaaaaand it’s finally done!!! Hurray!! (Well, the first step, anyway).
Submitted my docs with a request for an appointment today.
Many thanks to the Society for support. Now, we’ll see how long it takes to get an appointment.
FYI… the form still offers Halifax as an option to request for an appointment but I understand that may not be possible anymore (makes me mad that they haven’t updated their form). I put Halifax as my first request, just to make a point, but have requested Montreal as the backup. I assume that’s where I’ll have to go.
Will keep you posted on my progress.
@Hannah
Yep, sending the e-mail is the first step! The paperwork is quite simple.
For the questionnaire, as I said previously, just fill out what you can. If you don’t have (or don’t wish to disclose) an SSN, no problem. City or state and year are fine if you don’t have an exact address or date of your childhood residence in the US. There’s no need to supply a written statement, just give the same speech everyone else gives when asked for a reason. (“I identify as Canadian my life is here I have no connection to the US or future plans to move there period the end.”)
@Innocente
Wait times for CLNs do seem to be short now, I wonder if things are being processed at embassies without some sort of approval step in Washington. For Canadians you are asked to provide a self-addressed express mail envelope (so the true cost is $2,350 plus shipping) and the CLN is sent from Ottawa.
Perhaps I’m being naive, but I don’t see the delays in getting an appointment as being the product of any particular administration – Trump or Biden. I expect that renunciations are a subject of such minor importance to the State Department that nothing would ever rise to the level of a political appointee. It’s purely the bureaucracy at work.
@Hannah: I am partially through the process and the embassy only requested scanned copies of several documents. My first interview over the telephone is this week. I now need to decide whether to go through the renunciation this month or wait a bit in case I need to return to the US to deal with a couple administrative things.
@RonHenderson and @Innocente I will try to be a good sport and not get off topic. I would place the odds that the renunciation delays are the product of bureaucratic ineptitude/overabundance of COVID caution at about 15%. My base case remains that the Biden/Trump administration or policy level individuals purposefully decided to impede those renouncing and I would assign 85% odds. I spent part of this weekend reading the OECD Common Reporting Standard to decide whether to establish a company in the UAE and it looks as if whoever wrote the Common Reporting Standard was very deliberate. The authors are probably people who alter their roles between big banks and big international bureaucracies.
@ Hannah,
They usually don’t ask why you’re renouncing. It’s not required, nor relevant (unless perhaps if the person is sounding like they don’t really understand renunciation). But that question has been asked on occasion, so it’s good to have a one-liner ready, as per Ron H’s suggestion. No one who was asked why they were renouncing has reported here that they had any problems arising from it – they were asked, they answered, that was it.
They don’t ask many questions at all at the meeting, mainly just if they need to clarify something. And since they started having people send their forms and documents in in advance, if it’s something important, they’ve tended to contact people prior to their meeting to straighten it out.
The meeting itself goes pretty fast. Upon arrival at the consulate, you see a clerk, wait, and then see an officer. Waiting time between seeing clerk and officer can vary (people have reported waits from a few minutes to an hour). But the face time itself is consistently pretty short, about 15-20 minutes. About 5 minutes with the clerk. About 10-15 minutes with the officer, which I remember as mainly signing and pushing papers back and forth.
@ByeByeUSA
By “bureacracy at work” I didn’t necessarily mean incompetence or COVID fears, but rather that someone below the level of political appointee has made the decision to allocate resources in such a way that renunciations are not a high priority compared to other consular services, possibly because renunciation is not perceived as being time-sensitive relative to other needs. I absolutely do not believe that anyone is making a deliberate effort to slow renunciations because the number somehow makes America look bad, or because they don’t want to free the tax slaves. Nobody knows or cares about this, and the State Department doesn’t give a toss about any miniscule loss of tax revenue.