Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 2
US RELINQUISHMENT RENUNCIATION.m2
Above is a link to data we are compiling on Relinquishments and Renunciations — a work in progress.
(We are starting Part 2 as Part 1 has now over 1,000 comments.) Link to “Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 1”
This Relinquishment and Renunciation database corresponds with the Consulate Report Directory, which tracks individual experiences for each Consulate, along with a timeline chart.
Note: We are using numbers instead of blog names for this public posting so there will be no compromise of private information. Your facts will help give a snapshot of relinquishment and renunciation activity and where that occurs.
Please submit information in the comments below (or someone can contact you privately if you leave a message).
This database and the Consulate Report Directory have proven valuable resources for those new to the subject of relinquishment and renunciation. They can see numbers for and read others’ experiences of relinquishment or renunciation at various US consulates throughout the world — as reported by participants of the Isaac Brock site.
Thanks for your addition to the Relinquishment and Renunciation database. Your input will definitely help others.
@hijacked2012, Thank you so much, it is a very happy day. Yes, On to my next Victory!!
@Em, Thank you so much! It came sooner than expected, my last visit they told me it would be 2-4 more months and I was very surprise when I got the notice for the Ceremony. I am sure your husbands will be soon, very soon!! Yay!!
@Calgary411, Thank you so much!! I am a Very Happy Canadian Gal today!! Thank you for all your support, you are a great friend..
Congratulations Saddened 123 !
So very happy for you. Glad to hear an update from you. Hang in there!
best,
badger
@Saddened, I’m so pleased and relieved for you!! Your future is certainly looking brighter!!! I know how frightened and frustrated you’ve been over the past couple years! 🙂
@Badger, Thank you so much for your kind words, I appreciate it. It has been a long road, but I am almost there..
@Monalisa1776, Thank you for your kind words, I am almost there. I have had a rough couple of years, just like all Brockers. Thank God the end is near. Hope all is well with you!!
@saddened123
Félicitation… one more step to go and finito.
@Greenwood, Thank You! Yes, One more step and I will really feel FREE!!
Toronto – simple and smooth. A great embassy to deal with. Apparently even though I have lived in the US since becoming Canadian – because I never had a US passport or voted I qualified to relinquish – awesome – saved $450. Not sure what that means about living there under a foreign passport? But I relinquished last week.:) Breath:)
Thank you IBS for all the info!
My latest concern however is that I was missing a document. I had my landed immigrant card – 1973, and my citizenship card – 1990, but told them that I became a citizen in 1982 (I lost my first citizenship card and the replacement card stated the date I requested a new card not the date I became a citizen. Wanting to be honest – I gave them the year I actually became a citizen even though I had no documentation of it. This would not have been an issue if I was renouncing because the renuciation date would have been 2013. So now I dont really know what to expect from Washington. 1973, 1982, 1990 – or…. I dont want to even think about it. After months of stress though I have decided to take a holiday from thinking about it – not like I can do anything – nothing to do but wait.
Maybe someone on here had a similar situation?
@nomad33
Tricky one, this, I haven’t heard of this wrinkle before. But I think you’re still OK.
It sounds like the vice-consul at your interview accepted that you qualify for a relinquishment. If he/she didn’t, he/she would have said so and wouldn’t have accepted your 4079 form.
That form will be reviewed by the vice-consul’s supervisor in Toronto. If the supervisor thinks there is a problem, you should hear back from them within a week if not sooner. If you haven’t heard anything within 5-6 business days after your interview, I think it’s safe to assume that Toronto has forwarded the file to Washington for final approval.
It is very rare (it may only have happened once, maybe Pacifica or Calgary411 can remember) that Washington would over-ride an approval or forwarding from Toronto or any other consulate. The issue is what date they put on the CLN for the date of your relinquishment. It won’t be 1972, since landed immigrant status isn’t relinquishment. If they accept your sworn statement that you became a Canadian in 1982, that will be the date. If Washington wants to be a stickler about this, they might use the 1990 date on your citizenship card instead. But I suspect, absent any words to the contrary from the vice-consul at your interview or within 5-6 business days from the supervisor in Toronto, they’ll go with 1982. Washington might quarrel with that, but given the workload and backlog and assuming their “man/woman on the ground” in Toronto signed off on the application (essentially saying “this looks OK to me”) they’ll probably accept 1982 and that will likely be on the CLN. I’m not sure what they’ll do if all they have is the year and not the month and date too (unless you remembered that and gave it verbally or on the form), but we’ll see.
In terms of all the tax-filing crap (six years, form 8854 and all that jazz), as noted elsewhere on this website, our understanding is that none of that applies to a relinquishment prior to 2004 or arguably maybe 1994 (depending on how you look at these things). You’re well before either date even with 1990, so my suggestion is say and do absolutely nothing about any tax forms of any sort to IRS until you get the CLN, and as long as the date is 1990 or earlier and do say nothing afterward either.
I’m sorry you didn’t post this concern before your interview, because I’d have told you something I’ll tell you now anyway, though this may take 2-3 months depending on backlogs in Ottawa. Go to the Citizenship and Immigration Canada website and find the Access to Information link here
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/department/atip/form-imm5563.asp
You want a copy of your citizenship file from them under Access to Information; fill out the form and send them the $5 fee. In a couple of months they’ll send you photocopies (probably not the clearest, they’re usually from microfiche which are crappy for copying but they’ll be legible) and the documents on that file will include your signed and dated citizenship oath. You can probably also apply for a replacement citizenship certificate, but I’ve heard that takes longer to get. With the copy of your citizenship file, you’ll know the exact date and have a copy of your signed oath of citizenship to prove it. If there’s any problem with State Department re the dating, go back to the Toronto consulate with the CLN once you get it, and with this new documentation, and ask them if they can please correct the CLN date if that’s needed.
I can’t imagine they’d give you a CLN for relinquishment in 2013, that wouldn’t make any sense and is probably unlikely. But wait and see what you get from them. In the meantime, if I were you, I’d apply for the copy of the citizenship file immediately since you’ll likely get it before you get your CLN, but it will take a while as the ATI folks in all government departments are understaffed and overworked and have been for decades. I worked in an adjacent office to the ATI people at another federal department years ago, had lunch with them from time to time, and they were overworked and backlogged even back then …. so I know whereof I speak, and this is also why it has occurred to me in your case and others (Tiger and Blaze for example) to suggest getting a copy of your citizenship file.
Good luck!
@nomad33,
Good advise from Schubert. As he said he did advise both Blaze and I to ask ATI for the microfiche copy of our citizenship file.That was early days for me at IBS. I told them that I was okay with an emailed copy of the file and I received it in about 3 weeks.
I remember being so thrilled when I received the email that I promptly phoned the clerk who had sent it to me to thank her. She was so surprised. Y my phone call – I am sure it made her day. In my case, I had the full, complete date on. Y certificate, but wanted a copy of the oath, that in those days ( 1972) included a ‘renunciatory oath’.
Say, I’m having a bit of a problem figuring out if my wife needs to bring any paperwork to our US (in my case Embassy in Ottawa) consulate to renounce, or do I just book the appointment and show up? Their own website leaves me uncertain. Does anyone here know? If she does qualify for relinquishment, is this looked after at the same meeting? She’s ready to go forward with this. Is Ottawa a good office to deal with, or should I drive her to Toronto or Montreal instead?
She will need any passports she has/had and any citizenship certificates. If she knows her SSN and her last address in the US for the forms that will help. The forms for renunciation, which you could download and fill in, are:
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/81606.pdf
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/81607.pdf
For relinquishment you will probably need this too:
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/97025.pdf
They should be able to deal with either a relinquishment or renunciation at the same meeting I would think. It’s just a matter of going over the appropriate form/s to see which is applicable in her case.
You should also be able to ask here:
http://canada.usembassy.gov/contact/public-inquiry-form/form/ottawa-american-citizen-services.html
Also read of others’ experiences at Ottawa here ([age 41 onwards):
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Consulate-Report-Directory-2013.07.21.pdf
Forgot to add, you’ll need the appropriate documents, passports, etc, too Pierre D.
Is it unusual for them not to reply to emails? I made my appointment but, also emailed them to say that I had made the appointment to relinquish my U.S. citizenship. I haven’t heard a peep back from them. I do not want to show up in the 26th for my appointment and be told I should have done something else.
Also, these forms aren’t fillable? My hand writing is horrid..just wish they had fillable forms for heavens sakes.
As to the tax situation, I hadn’t planned on doing anything until after relinquishing…I am having a lot of trouble figuring out what I am to do. There is only ONE year I met the requirement to have to file. But, if you relinquish they are saying to file five years back and six years of FBARS. I asked a two tax accountants about this and they did not know either. Should I fill out the other four years full of zeros?? I am afraid that will raise red flags…but, if I only file for the one year that will be odd too. Does anyone know or have any advice about this? Should I just file all five years even though four of them will be full of zeros just to get the paperwork in?
@Pierre D. Unless it’s too inconvenient or expensive for you, I strongly recommend that you go to the Toronto consulate and not to the embassy here in Ottawa. There have been some bad experiences in Ottawa in the past, though lately I’ve heard they’ve cleaned up their act (possibly under pressure from one straight-shooter near the top of the food chain in the embassy). But we’ve heard nothing but good experiences from people who’ve gone to Toronto. They don’t play stupid games with you, they don’t have chips on their shoulders the way some morons did in the embassy in the past, and they seem to “get” why people are booking these appointments and actually have helped a couple of folks by telling them they can save $450 and relinquish rather than renounce, when that has in fact been the case.
Montreal may be closer, but we don’t have as much experience with them. I’d vote for Toronto, without any qualifications. BTW my wife and three other people I know here in Ottawa went to Toronto instead of Ottawa, with no problems. You don’t have to go to Ottawa if you live in Ottawa; we have that in writing from the Big Enchilada in the relevant State Department office in Washington (at least, as of about 18 months ago, if they haven’t changed their policy …) My sense is that even if there has been a policy change (which I haven’t heard of), if you show up for your interview in Toronto it would be highly out of the character of all the vice-consuls people have encountered there to date, for them to turn you away that day and send you back to Ottawa.
@atticus I assume/hope you booked your appointment with Toronto and not Ottawa (see my reply to Pierre D above). If you sent your email to the “generic” email address on their website, you may or may not hear from them. If it’s Toronto, don’t worry about it; the clerk who meets with you first and who takes your paperwork (for the vice-consul to read just before meeting with you) will know what your meeting is about, or if not you can tell him/her but with those forms it’ll be obvious, they’ve been seeing rather a lot of them lately.
If you downloaded the PDF versions of 4079, 4080 (if appropriate, only for renunciation not for relinquishment) and 4081, from State’s website, I think you should be able to fill them out on your computer. I’m not certain, because I have Adobe Acrobat Standard as well as the less powerful Reader on my computer. I know (because I did this for my wife) that with Acrobat Standard or probably Acrobat Elements, you should be able to fill out the forms from your computer keyboard, they are in fact designed for that. If you only have the free Acrobat Reader, maybe you can fill them out and maybe not, I’m not sure, maybe someone else can say. But try it anyway if you haven’t already. (Or if you know someone who has Acrobat Standard on their computer and don’t mind asking them to use theirs, that’s maybe another option.)
Can’t help you re form 8854. Neither my wife nor I have ever filled it out or paid any attention to it, nor will we, ever. But our relinquishments are from the 1970s, and if IRS wants anything from either of us, all they’re ever getting is our upraised middle fingers.
@schubert
Tks for the great info! ’73,’82,’90 are all fine with me! Having the wait and give them the exact date – a pain but not the end of the world. Knowing I don’t have to bury myself in paperwork for months ahead – priceless!!!
The other woman relinquishing in Toronto didn’t have her official certificate with the exact date on it either – just the card like me and they were fine with it. The date on her card matched the date she told them she became Canadian though.
What would it take to have a record setting return of my documents and my CLN? I look forward to this all being over.
Because there is still much talk of the differences going on in the various consulates I’ll share my experience in Toronto (personal messiness aside)
I booked the appointment online – I could have had one as early as a month out but waited for two because it fit better into my schedule. I emailed them and told them I was coming and they sent me the documents I needed right away, we exchanged several emails and they were always prompt in replying, they informed me that I actually did not need to tell them I was coming – the online booking was sufficient. I realized I had forgotten my online confirmation of my appointment and they emailed it to me right away. I was the first in, I surrendered my cell phone and was taken upstairs, again I was the first, gave my documents to the man behind the glass filled out a form with my current address and last US address and had a seat.
About 10 minutes later another man came and spoke with me regarding my documents – this happened three times over the course of the 30 minute wait, he was extremely helpful and just wanted to get my story straight. Then he came out a last time and gave me a number. He told me I was not in order because they were still sorting things out but it wouldn’t be long – it was maybe 5 more minutes.
They was a woman behind the glass now with an accent from the south. She said because I was relinquishing she needed to ask some questions (until that point I thought I was renouncing):
1.When I came to Canada (maybe it was when I became Canadian I can’t remember but I answered when I came to Canada – I was thrown off with all the date talk and the discovery that I could relinquish)
2. Had I ever had a US passport
3. Had I ever voted
4. Had I ever filed US taxes
Then we both signed the documents. I accidentally signed the wrong date and rather then just changing it on the document she had another one typed up stating clearly “I would hate for you do go through this only to have it rejected on Washington on such a technicality” Very nice I thought.
I was given my Canadian ID and was on my way.
I would absolutely recommend Toronto.
@Keonna Glad to hear your Toronto experience is another in a long series of good experiences at that consulate. I’ll beat Calgary411 and Pacifica to the punch, and suggest that you post a copy of your experiences on the other thread too (the Consulate Report Directory, see link on the right side near the top of the web page) so folks searching that thread for information on specific consulates can find your story more easily (it will get buried and almost impossible to find in this current thread you and I are now using …)
Cheers, and I hope you don’t have to wait too long. Good to hear the vice-consuls in Toronto are keen not to let anyone get tripped up on a technicality. At least it was an easily-fixed technicality, and not the stupidity that the anal-retentive person in Vancouver got all upset about with Tiger’s case (couldn’t make out one of the letters in the middle name of Tiger’s father on Tiger’s old, much-folded birth certificate, you couldn’t make stuff like this up in fiction unless your name is Franz Kafka, no publisher would buy it … can you imagine that a consular employee would believe that Tiger or anyone else would ever forge a US birth certificate in order to be able to apply for a US CLN??? Someone’s elevator wasn’t going all the way to the top floor that day …)
… also interesting confirmation of my long-held belief that the form 4079 question about filing US taxes in the past isn’t there to rat you out to the IRS, it’s there because if you have been filing US taxes from outside the country, it generally would only be because you believed and accepted you were a US citizen, which might contradict a relinquishment-with-intent claim depending on the timing of the relinquishing act and the tax filing … if you can answer “no” to that question, you’re not in trouble, it’s only if the answer is “yes” that there can be a problem.
@ Keonna,
Good to hear you had a good experience at the consulate, and it sounds like everything should go fine.
Toronto ACS is well versed in expatriation law and procedure, including s.(1) relinquishments – not something I’d say about all consulates – and, as you experienced, very considerate to deal with (out to prevent problems rather than cause them), so I’d feel confident if they feel your papers are in order, they are in order, and all that’s left now is to wait for your CLN to arrive.
Schubert asked if I or Calgary411 have heard of DC rejecting any relinquishment applications. I haven’t. Can’t say it hasn’t happened, of course, but it would seem to be very uncommon. This stuff seems to get weeded out / straightened out at the consulate level, and DC’s approval is pretty much a formality. I do know of one case where the consulate (happened to be Toronto) phoned a person a week after their relinquishment visit because they found a problem when reviewing the file prior to sending it on to DC.
I’ve added your report to the Directory, just the general part of your 1.26 pm comment [beginning with the paragraph, “I booked the appointment online …”] which I’ll be uploading later today. If you’d like to change it, just let me know. Thanks for sharing!
I registered the foreign birth of my two children when they were in their mid teens and now in their mid twenties they have just about had enough of the stress of their US citizenship and are considering renouncing, but I am curious if they would qualify to relinquish rather than renounce and if that would be simpler and cheaper and preferable.
They were both born in Canada and have lived entirely in Canada and have never possessed a US passport. All tax returns, FBAR’s, etc. have been filed.
@andie,
As your children were born dual citizens, they would not be able to ‘relinquish’. Relinquishment is usually the result of performing an expatriating act, such as , taking out the citizenship of another country, both ‘voluntarily and with the intent to relinquish your citizenship.
They would have to renounce and the cost is presently $450 .
There is excellent advise as to what forms are needed, which consulates are the best to book appointments at etc. (speaking from experience, avoid the Vancouver consulate).
Thank you for the advice though not what I was hoping for. Vancouver would be the most convenient – perhaps a trip to Calgary is in order.
@ andie,
Te Calgary consulate has an excellent reputation as reported by others on this site. At the present time they require only 1 appointment for both relinquishment and renunciation.
If you check out the Consulate Report Directory (sidebar), you will see reports various posters have written a out their consulate experiences.
Vancouver requires 2 visits and at the present time there are no available appointments. If you read the directory, I posted my traumatic e pertinence with the Vancouver consulate. If I were starting the process today, there is not a doubt, I would crawl to Calgary rather than attend another appointment in Vancouver.