Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 2
US RELINQUISHMENT RENUNCIATION.m2
Above is a link to data we are compiling on Relinquishments and Renunciations — a work in progress.
(We are starting Part 2 as Part 1 has now over 1,000 comments.) Link to “Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 1”
This Relinquishment and Renunciation database corresponds with the Consulate Report Directory, which tracks individual experiences for each Consulate, along with a timeline chart.
Note: We are using numbers instead of blog names for this public posting so there will be no compromise of private information. Your facts will help give a snapshot of relinquishment and renunciation activity and where that occurs.
Please submit information in the comments below (or someone can contact you privately if you leave a message).
This database and the Consulate Report Directory have proven valuable resources for those new to the subject of relinquishment and renunciation. They can see numbers for and read others’ experiences of relinquishment or renunciation at various US consulates throughout the world — as reported by participants of the Isaac Brock site.
Thanks for your addition to the Relinquishment and Renunciation database. Your input will definitely help others.
@Nomad33, what does never having had a US passport got to do with your appointment? Why would what be unnecessary?
If you plan to renounce then no, form 4079 isn’t needed as far as I know. I didn’t fill one in for my renunciation at the Bern embassy in Switzerland.
However, for a relinquishment it probably would be as part two of the form is the relinquishing declaration while some of the questions in part one are used to determine your expatriating act. A letter in support of form 4079 may help in some cases.
Can you be a bit clearer about what he was talking about?
I am not sure, my chat with the lawyer came to an abrupt end – we got cut off. It is my understanding the you do not need to appear in person if you are relinquishing, the appt. is only necessary for renunciation. I don’t have, and have never has a US passport – clear statement that I have no allegiance with the US and that I will not attempt to continue to reap the benefits of being American (travel on a US passport or live in the US). Because I am swearing an oath to renounce there should, in theory – be no questions about my reasons.
I’m trying to muddle through the info here in order to have a seamless experience but I must admit that I am confused. Each consulate has it’s own rules from what I can tell – I have spoken to several of them.
@Nomad33,
Are you reporting a prior expatriating act (such as, swearing an oath of allegiance to Canada at a citizenship ceremony) at your appointment at the Toronto consulate? If so, then I would think you would most definitely need the 4079 as that form explains your ‘intent to relinquish’ at the time of the expatriating act.
If, on the other hand, you were born a dual, American and Canadian, and thus never performed an expatriating act, you would be attending the appointment to renounce your U.S. citizenship. Then you would not need the 4079.
You need to be more clear regarding your personal circumstances i order for us to answer your questions.
@Nomad,
What is an expatriation lawyer who says you do not have to appear at a consulate to claim a relinquishment? What will be your claim for your relinquishment vs a renunciation of US citizenship?
Is this a Canadian immigration / nationality lawyer, a US tax lawyer? I don’t understand the term “expatriation lawyer.” There are some scammy lawyers out there.
We have no report of ANY successful relinquishments by not appearing. If your lawyer has some specific examples of successful relinquishments without an appearance at a US consulate, we would like to report that here. Please read the experiences reported in the Consulate Report directory for those who have reported both relinquishments and renunciations here http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/consulate2/ .
As others have expressed, we need more specific information from you in order to give good advice based on other experiences reported at Isaac Brock. Hang in there — and thanks.
Tiger Any advice on how to get an appointment in Vancouver? They show spots for getting a passport, adding a page to a passport, registering a child but NEVER for ‘notarial and other services’.
@Duke of Devon,
As I have mentioned before, the Vancouver consulate is very difficult to deal with (if you are fortunate enough to get an appointment). I had my first appointment in Sept. 2012 and would still be waiting for my 2nd appointment if not for the intervention of Sylvia Johnson, the Consul General for Canada. Also, as you mentioned, their online booking site shows no future appointment.
The Calgary Consulate, on the other hand, requires you to book your appointment with an email to them, notifying them it is for a relinquishment/renunciation. They only require one appointment as much is accomplished by email.
If I were starting the process now, there is no question in my mind, but, I would do this thru the Calgary office. Worth the drive or flight, to save the extreme aggravation!
Oh boy, sorry to confuse you – a clear statement of my own confusion.
My situation is complex and even confused the lawyer. I have three citizenships, and birth certificates from two countries.
Born in the US I became dual national at birth (British parents – the UK gives out birth certs to British subjects born abroad) and triple as a child when the whole family immigrated to Canada.
I have lived in Canada, Europe and the US and travelled extensively on both my European and Canadian passports (my European has long since expired) and I’ve never had an American one.
I seek simplicity and this move is long over due.I happily go to my appt. to relinquish/renounce and look forward to this simplicity.
Any advice?
@Nomad33, no you must attend whether it’s for a relinquishment or a renunciation. And why do you need an “expatriating lawyer” in the first place? If you acquired your Canadian citizenship with the intent to relinquish your American one, then you are going to relinquish. As Tiger said, if you were born with a dual nationality then you must renounce, relinquishment isn’t possible. For neither do you need the help/assistance of a lawyer. You simply take the required documents (4079 for relinquishing, 4080 & 4081 for renunciation, plus supporting documents as needed) to the embassy/consulate and that’s it. If you need to renounce then you will need to swear or affirm that this is what you want to do, but if you’re relinquishing you’re just informing them that you’ve already commited an expatriating act (by getting Canadian citizenship with the intention of losing the American one). Don’t be fooled by lawyers telling you otherwise. Read the Consulate Reports for Toronto here:
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Consulate-Report-Directory-2013.07.21.pdf
pages 46 through 61. These will give you some insight to how things work, what to expect and not a single one needed a lawyer to do this. You just have to be strong yourself and know that you are Canadian and that’s all you are.
Don’t contact this lawyer again, he doesn’t know what he’s talking about and you’re simply wasting money on rubbish.
Thanks Tiger. Does anyone have an idea what the problem in Vancouver is due to and how they could be induced to mend their ways?
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/consulate2/comment-page-12/#comment-403144 is my Congratulations to Tiger. It was the culmination of many long months of communications with Sylvia D. Johnson, Consul General, Ottawa Embassy in an attempt to get procedures for all (at least Canadian) US consulates the same, that is the same experience for everyone who wishes to expatriate from the US. Her attempts have not been successful — she really tried and communicated with us when others did not. From experiences reported, Toronto seems a reasonable consulate to deal with, as Halifax. My husband, my daughter and I renounced US citizenship in Calgary. Their process for making the appointment is entirely different from other Canadian US consulates / embassy. There is communication and questionnaire, etc. by email. For us, all paperwork was ready when we went for our ONE renunciation appointment. A truly respectful, efficient process at Calgary for us!
I would encourage anyone to skip the Vancouver US consulate two-appointment, much-hassle experience. It is truly backwards and, I think, judgmentally punitive for those of us who have the audacity to renounce or claim relinquishment of US citizenship.
@Nomad33, it’s not confusing at all. You just want to renounce (not relinquish) your American citizenship. I was almost the same as you, American born of British parents and have two birth certificates.
You need to fill in forms 4080 and 4081, the Oath and Statement of Understanding. Take with you all your birth certificates and all your passports as they will want to make copies of those. They will go through the documents with you to make sure all the details are correct, then you’ll have to pay the fee and wait awhile until the Consul can formally take your Oath. You’ll both sign the Oath and Statement of Understanding and that will be it, done. You are effectively no longer an American citizen. The consulate will send everything off to the State Department for approval and you just have to wait for your CLN to arrive.
@Duke of Devon, it seems to be nothing more than sheer bloody-mindedness, excuse the swearing. Sylvia Johnson has intervened a few times iirc on behalf of people here who’ve had to wait far too long for second appointments – which aren’t really needed in the first place – but nothing and no one seems to be able to persuade them to change their method of dealing with this subject. Why they believe people would turn up wanting to get rid of American citizenship without having a darn good think about it beforehand is beyond me. By the time you reach that stage you’ve more than likely worried yourself sick over the whole thing and certainly don’t need more time to “reflect on the serious nature and consequences” of giving up America.
@media
Makes sense, tks for offering up some clarity. I became Canadian before my 18th birthday so to say that I did so to relinquish doesn’t work because was a minor. I must then renounce as my UK is from birth. Just completed the forms. Don’t see the one where I have to give my SSN but they do ask for my US address – is that for only US residents leaving? Or do I need to did through some old files and find it?
@duke
I tried for months to reach Vancouver with no luck. Calgary is happy to take the overflow but they are booking now for mid December or January. Even if they showed notarial services in Vancouver it may not matter – Calgary doesn’t allow you to use the online system either. I had booked an appointment online for Calgary and when I contacted the consulate they cancelled it and told me it was a different process that required a special appointment which is why I am going to Toronto – I don’t want to wait and get into another tax year – I know it doesn’t matter but its for my own peace of mind.. Calgary doesn’t require the 4079 to be filled out – they have created a single page document that serves the same purpose. Its a very simple questionnaire. Toronto allowed me to book on line. After my Calgary experience I wanted to make sure I could and I got a response back right away with the forms and info. I emailed them for a few other things as well and the response time was excellent – usually within hours – a day at most. Both Toronto and Calgary require only one appointment and seem to have a good record for being professional from what I can tell. Its up to you but Vancouver seems to be a big head ache.
@Nomad33, if you have a Canadian citizenship certificate take that too.
No, they wouldn’t accept your Candian citizenship as a minor as evidence that you intended to renounce your US one I don’t think, so that’s why you can’t relinquish. Plus I assume that if you’ve lived in the US since gaining citizenship, maybe even worked/voted, then that is evidence to them that you didn’t intend to give up your US citizenship. They will want to know your SSN number if you have it and also your last address in the States if you can find/remember that too.
Man have I ever been making this harder then it needs to be! Tks for the clarity everybody:)
Lastly, hoping this is a non issue. While living in Europe I legally changed my name in the UK, when I returned to Canada I changed it here and reported it to the IRS.
So the documents I will be taking with me.
UK an US birth certs in birth name
Expired UK passport in birth name ( I lost the expired one in the new name)
Canadian citizenship card in birth name (no cert. and as such I don’t know the exact date)
Current Canadian passport – in new name
Expired Canadian passport in old name
Social security card – I have both of them, the one with the old name and the one with the new
Name change documents from the UK
2 copies of the 4079, 4080, 4081 completed but not signed
It may be redundant to take the expired passports but I figure it can’t hurt for more evidence that I am who I say I am. I am filling out the forms with the new name with a “formerly” caveat. I hope this is correct as the change has been reported. But I intend to ask when I am there. Anyone else have name change experience?
Also – DO I need to take in a stamped envelope?
@ Nomad,
A good thing for you, and anyone, to do is e-mail the specific consulate you book at, asking them what documents to bring. Most document requirements are common to all consulates – but it does vary a bit.
Some consulates automatically e-mail you a list, when you book, telling you what to bring (eg. Calgary, where you book by sending them an e-mail requesting a renunciation/relinquishment appointment). Some don’t (ones where you book for Notarial and Other Services) – so just ask them in advance to avoid having to make a second trip.
Name change is not a problem if you have supporting documentation, such as a change of name certificate, as you do, or a marriage certficate, as some people do. Your CLN will be in the current name, so they only require you to use your current name on the on the actual DoS documents.
Stamped envelope depends on the consulate. Toronto has not been requiring that. But at any consulate, things can change over time.
@pacifica and everyone else. Toronto told me they would only send the CLN to an Ontario address perhaps that is why there is no request for an envelop. Maybe if I take one in they will send it to BC – lol. I’ll take your advice and contact them.
Thank you all for your help today. I finally feel prepared, and even somewhat relaxed about my appointment. I’ll let you know how it goes.
@Nomad33
Apologies if this has already been brought up, but you’re aware of the whole “covered expatriate” thing and the 3 (or 1 for certain duals at birth) tests that determine whether a renunciant is a “covered expat”, right?
Good point tdott and that’s where it could get complicated. Here the exception to the covered expatriate situation:
“There is only one exception for adults. If you received citizenship of both the U.S. and some other country at birth, if you continue to hold the citizenship of that country, if you are taxed as a resident of that country, AND if you have been a resident of the U.S. for no more than 10 of the 15 years prior to renouncing U.S. citizenship, you’re exempted from the exit tax provision.”
My interpretation of that paragraph is a bit different from tdott’s because I take it to mean you need to meet all the requirements it lays down, not just the dual birth part. This may be where you need a US tax expert’s advice.
Myself, I had dual birth and continue to have British citizenship, I am taxed by the UK although I don’t live there at present (director of a dormant UK company and as such must file a UK tax return every year) and I haven’t lived in the States sine the late 60s.
Now you hold both US and UK nationalities from birth and you continue to hold British nationality. However I assume you aren’t taxed by the UK at present. You also hold Canadian citizenship, but that wasn’t from birth although you are being taxed by them. When were you last lving in the US?
Now this may all be mute because you might not meet the other requirements to be classed as a covered expat anyway, but you can read about it here:
http://web.archive.org/web/20120726052834/http:/www.renunciationguide.com/
If you do meet the requirements then seek out a US tax expert for further advice on whether you might meet the exception. The paragraph itself is open to interpretation as to whether it’s all one requirement as I see it, or whether just having part of – like dual birth – is enough.
@media
It would be fantastic to be exempt due to citizenship ( I didn’t know that was possible) – I guess I will find out soon enough, but regardless I have no investments – pretty straight forward – you can’t get much from nothing.
To answer your question – I have not lived more then 10 years in the US my entire life.
Being a dual citizen from birth under specific circumstances will exempt you from the exit tax, but not from the obligation to show tax compliance for 5 years.
@Medea Fleecestealer
I believe we’re actually on the same page. It was not my intention to say that dual at birth was a sufficient condition for exemption. It’s necessary, but not sufficient. The residency and tax aspects must also be met.
@Nomad33
If you already know about the 3 tests for not being a covered expat. stop reading now.
1) Net worth test – if your net worth is over $2 million USD, then you will be a covered expat. If you are closer to retirement than not, or have owned the same home in, say, Vancouver, Calgary, or Toronto for a number of years, then you could get tripped up by this. Fortunately, legal gifting can possibly provide a work-around (though not for RRSPs).
If you’re a dual from birth and meet the other conditions that Media outlined, you can be exempt from this test.
2) Tax liability test – anyone living in a relatively high tax jurisdiction should, I believe, not have to worry about this as foreign tax credits s should make it a non-issue.
As with test #1, you’re exempt from this if you’re a dual from birth and meet the other conditions.
3) Tax compliance test – you need to be able to certify under thread of perjury that you have complied with all US Federal tax obligations for the five years preceding the date of expatriation (Compliance Test).
I believe for the vast majority of potential renunciants, this is the big one. If you have not been filing, you will automatically be a “covered expat”. Not only that, but the IRS can still come after you for those years you weren’t filing, and now you’re a willful non-filer.
Being dual from birth can NOT exempt you from this!
Most old-timers here know all this, but it can’t hurt to repeat IMO, and may be of help if it prevents someone from inadvertently becoming a “covered expat” who doesn’t understand all the ramifications of covered status.
I’ll shut up now.
@ tdott
If someone has a) no US assets, b) no intention to ever enter Mordor (even for a visit), c) no expectation of an inheritance from a US person and d) no plans to gift or bequeath anything to a US person then being a “covered expat” might simply mean an icky label with a puzzling adjective with virtually no take it to or out of the bank consequences.
Phil Hodgen wrote:
The consequences of being a
goatcovered expatriate are:* Gift. If you make a gift to a U.S. person, the recipient has a potential tax to pay. See 26 USC Section 2801. Presumably our hypothetical dual U.S./Canadian individual will never give a penny to a U.S. person.
* Bequest. If you die and leave an inheritance to a U.S. person, the recipient has a potential tax to pay. Again, see 26 USC Section 2801. Again, I assume this is not going to happen, so our hypothetical dual citizen won’t care about this.
* Lorena Bobbit. The IRS could go on a binge of jilted-lover vengeance and attempt to tag our hypothetical dual citizen with U.S. tax liabilities and penalties for past sins. This is a risk if the Canadian tax authorities are playing footsie under the table with our IRS Overlords. If the Canadians have half a spine and tell the U.S. government to go bite tires, then there is no risk — unless our would-be goat decides to travel to the United States. I suspect there is no extraordinary rendition of Canadians to the United States for taxes owed to the USA. Yet.
* “Hello, Lion. May I inspect your teeth?”. If our deliberate goat decides to travel to the United States, the consequences are unknown to me. If there is a criminal indictment, there would be the possibility of arrest. If it is a mere civil tax debt to the U.S. government, well, I thought we abolished debtor’s prisons a while ago. But don’t quote me on this–it’s a Brave New World we’re living in. So the better answer is to stay out of the United States for the rest of your life.
http://hodgen.com/deliberately-choosing-covered-expatriate-status/
All well and dandy except that I cannot travel to Calgary or Toronto. Can barely make it to Vamcouver. Guess i’ll just have to keep my head down and hope for the best.