Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 2
US RELINQUISHMENT RENUNCIATION.m2
Above is a link to data we are compiling on Relinquishments and Renunciations — a work in progress.
(We are starting Part 2 as Part 1 has now over 1,000 comments.) Link to “Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 1”
This Relinquishment and Renunciation database corresponds with the Consulate Report Directory, which tracks individual experiences for each Consulate, along with a timeline chart.
Note: We are using numbers instead of blog names for this public posting so there will be no compromise of private information. Your facts will help give a snapshot of relinquishment and renunciation activity and where that occurs.
Please submit information in the comments below (or someone can contact you privately if you leave a message).
This database and the Consulate Report Directory have proven valuable resources for those new to the subject of relinquishment and renunciation. They can see numbers for and read others’ experiences of relinquishment or renunciation at various US consulates throughout the world — as reported by participants of the Isaac Brock site.
Thanks for your addition to the Relinquishment and Renunciation database. Your input will definitely help others.
Thanks, everyone.
@pacifica, you are correct. I was only there as an infant, as my Canadian father chose to serve in the US Navy in the 60s. It’s quite sad that he, with dementia, can’t understand why I was so adament about ditching something he was so proud to provide me with. The dementia doesn’t allow him to understand the situation at all. That he served the US is a particular thorn in my side, at this point.
I only read through the accompanying documentation briefly. I believe there is information included regarding appeals. If that is the case, I may very well appeal, in writing, regarding the consulate telling me that DC would refuse my relinqishment attempt. I was the one that had the same consulate tell me in 92 that I was no longer a citizen because I’d voted in Canada.
We’ll see…I will sit with it a bit. I’m kinda’ like a dog with a bone, though. LOL
Well, here’s my latest tweet on the latest and greatest from our fans in Congress:
So, what is the US response to this? You guessed it:
Please delete that one. It got posted the wrong place.
I have been thinking about renouncing my citizenship for years and it has been one of the most stressful decisions to make. I am afraid of two consequences on the basis of renouncement:
1. Can they bar from me entering the US as a Canadian citizen who has renounced my US citizenship? How long can you travel to the US for? Can you go often?
2. Can they prevent from you working in the US in the future? (I realize you would have to get a work VISA etc).
Hi, Can anyone tell me if it is possible to make a copy of CLN where it shows the seal?? I have made several copies for my son but it fails to show the seal. Is there a copy centre that could make a copy that would show the seal?? I know it would not be a raised seal but just a print of it. Thanks!
@ saddened 123
It may not be possible because sometimes seals are designed specifically to not be photocopied. I guess to prevent forgeries. You could take the original and a copy to a notary public and have him/her sign off as to the accuracy of the photocopy.
@Em, Thank you very much! I guess that would be the best thing to do.
Has your husband heard any news about his Canadian Citizenship yet??
@ saddened123
Nope … still “in process”. We wait and we wait and we wait some more. 🙁 OH, but there was one tiny sign that something may be progressing. My husband’s original landed immigrant certificate had Jr. attached to his name. He requested it be removed for his citizenship papers and now the website no longer has Jr. on it when he checks it. It’s a small thing but maybe it’s a good sign.
@Em, It has now been 21 months since I applied, but I was called in so that they could verify my info, with Passport, OHIP and Driver’s License. I was shocked I had to go to the office to show them. The Officer said to me I just can’t believe you have not been back to US in 6 years to visit. I said no I have not, he said it is hard to believe. I told him I have a bad back and it is hard for me to travel. He said it would probably be another 2-4 more months before I hear anything.. Good Lord, what a wait.
@ saddened123
Good grief! It really looks like they are going to make you wait a full 2 years. If my husband has to wait that long (and he probably will) it will mean no citizenship until April 2014. I hope he doesn’t get called into the office because that would be a day trip to Calgary for us … most likely in the winter. BTW, I haven’t been to the USA myself since 1997 and I don’t think that is such an unusual thing at all.
saddened123 – Haven’t done raised seal reproduction, but seems like it should be doable. You could photograph the document with strong side-lighting. Without a camera stand and appropriate set up, there’d probably be some distortion. Once you’ve got the image, print as desired. Getting fancier, maybe you could photograph just the seal portion (smaller area, reduce distortion) and then photoshop that bit into a straight-on scan. Ideas.
@usxcanada, I think that is a good idea also, I wonder what others have done. I want more than the original, you never know what could happen. It is such a important document.
@saddened123
Not sure whether this helps, but it’s a try. I had a similar concern about copies of my CLN (and my partner’s). We made our own copies of these and brought them to get officially notarised, despite the copies being rather less than ideal. These we needed to send both to the Australian Tax Office and to this country’s Department of Immigration and Citizenship. We enquired with them beforehand; both these organisations were perfectly happy receiving formally notarised copies rather than having us bring them the (very precious) originals in person. We had a number of extra copies notarised as well, in case ever needed. My guess is that Canada would be equally civil regarding such things.
@Money…didn’t read your posts, but feeling you. Try hard not to think about it too much. It will go away when its gone, but in the mean time you have a life to live.
@ozteddies, Thank you for the reply, I think that is a very good idea. I appreciate it..
My appointment to relinquish is on Sept. 26 in Toronto. I am going to attempt to relinquish as was my intent when I took Canadian citizenship. I have printed off the forms referred to here. I sent them an email after making the appt. online but, did not get a reply though I did print off my form for the appt. I will write them again today if I don’t hear back soon. I am not sure what forms I should take with me other than my Canadian citizenship certificate and Canadian passport/ U.S. passport. I do NOT have a Social Security card since marrying here over 33 years ago. I had one as a child but, did not put my married name on it as I never intended to use it again, claim anything or return to the U.S. to work so what good was it to me. I notice one of the forms asks for this number. I sure hope I don’t have to go and get one at the New York office or update my old one as this will be a major pita.
Any advice?
Neither did I, but they found it from a previous US passport application so may be able to do the same for you. You shouldn’t need anything else.
Thanks Medea, I won’t worry about it too much then. That number is so OLD. My grandmother applied and got it for me at the age of 12. I wouldn’t even know where to begin looking for it!
Same for me. My mom got me a summer job for a few weeks the year before we left the US permanently so that was the only time I ever used it. If you live too far away from Toronto to make the journey easily you could try ringing/e-mailing them to ask their advice if it may result in a wasted trip.
@Atticus
When I went to the Toronto consulate, one form asked for my SSN. I told them I didn’t have one so they just put N/A in the space. Didn’t seem like a big deal.
Thanks Mom and Quincy. I live three hours away from Toronto so yes, it would be difficult to get there and be told I really needed a SS number.
@attincusinCanada,
I dealt with the most difficult Vancouver office and when asked for my Social Security Number, I told them that it was so long ago, I had no idea what it was. They put N/A on the form. it was not an issue.
Here’s some interesting numbers. “Citizenship Canada could not immediately say how many Canadians give up their citizenship each year. But in 2012, the Canadian Broadcasting Corp, citing departmental data, said the number was about 140 a year”.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/us-sen-cruz-says-he-will-renounce-his-canadian-citizenship/article13867102/
The population of the US is roughly 9X that of Canada’s, so given that the US is the “greatest country on earth” to live, you’d expect the US’s renunciation numbers to be no more than 9X that of Canada’s: 1260 per year. So unless Q2 2013 was just clearing a backlog, this is a deluge! My personal opinion is that the renunciations will continue at a pretty steady pace until there are no more Americans abroad to speak of, unless something miraculous happens, like RBT.
@Bubblebustin, if I had to place a bet (illegal in the US, of course, LOL) I’d guess that things will get worse but eventually get better in the long term. FATCA will suffer teething problems and probably not be fully implemented till about 2016 or 2017; there will inevitably be casualties with perhaps longterm non-filers becoming an easy target, especially as they’ll have completely open statutes of limitation.
I could see them singling out some minnows to make an example of them and further frighten people into compliance; there will then naturally be a big backlash which could get quite ugly. There will be calls for the Reed Act to be enforced or something like the Ex-Patriot Act actually passed in order to put people off expatriating; But eventually, someone will be brave (and rich) enough, with possibly even a few pro bono cases hitting the Supreme Court.
I would guess then that the ultimate result will be that the IRS will back down with things will get easier for expats. Whether they tweak the reporting rules by raising the thresholds so that ordinary middle class people are no longer affected or by hopefully switching to RBT is anyone’s guess…but I’d like to think that the system will be reformed to include RBT.
As I understand it, there was a similar uproar in the late 1970s after President Ford agreed to remove the foreign earned income exclusion but that there was an uproar with it being reinstated about four years later.
I have my appointment in Toronto soon. I spoke with an expatriation lawyer yesterday who informed me that because I have never had a US passport it is unnecessary. I took this to mean that it would be a simple relinquishment. He also told me that the 4079 is not required and sent me this:
here is the link to the State Department
manual on renunciation:
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/115645.pdf. As you see, on p.7
it states:
” While Form DS -4079, Request for Determination of Possible Loss of United
States Citizenship, is not standard for renunciation cases, where there is a
question about intent it may prove useful.”
In your case there should be no question of intent as you will be signing
DS-4080, which is the oath of renunciation.
He also told me that a letter of intent is used only to support the 4079 that isn’t required. He said that the state and the tax man are now talking and that filling out the 4079 can actually slow down the process to get the CLN because of this.
This makes sense to me as Calgary does not require this form and CLN’s come quickly there. I would like to not fill it out – on principal – as it infringes on my right to privacy as a Canadian. Any thoughts?