Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 2
US RELINQUISHMENT RENUNCIATION.m2
Above is a link to data we are compiling on Relinquishments and Renunciations — a work in progress.
(We are starting Part 2 as Part 1 has now over 1,000 comments.) Link to “Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 1”
This Relinquishment and Renunciation database corresponds with the Consulate Report Directory, which tracks individual experiences for each Consulate, along with a timeline chart.
Note: We are using numbers instead of blog names for this public posting so there will be no compromise of private information. Your facts will help give a snapshot of relinquishment and renunciation activity and where that occurs.
Please submit information in the comments below (or someone can contact you privately if you leave a message).
This database and the Consulate Report Directory have proven valuable resources for those new to the subject of relinquishment and renunciation. They can see numbers for and read others’ experiences of relinquishment or renunciation at various US consulates throughout the world — as reported by participants of the Isaac Brock site.
Thanks for your addition to the Relinquishment and Renunciation database. Your input will definitely help others.
Hi all ,it is me again, I wrote back in OCT , after all this time my husband finally got word of his new citizenship, And Germany has a law that if the cost is more then your salary to renounce your current citizenship, you can get german citizenship anyway and retain the USA / duaL we are trying to go the relinquish route of taking on another citizenship with the intent to relinquish the Amertican, expatriating act,but he receiived the paper saying he had to give up the American first, the case worker has informed us that before she works on the “ausnahme” she wants to know how much it will cost total, proof of renouncing cost 2350 was recieved per email from AM Embassy. and she wants to know the difference between renounce and relinquish, if more costs would accure for renouncing, filing requirements,international tax preparer cost, etc she would want to know the cost. will he “have” to file to receive the CLN? if he were to renounce with the fee and the cost of filing for the required number of years. although he plans on becoming a covered expatriat anyway.
we really are stuck here don;t want to be USC but are being forced to keep it. if someone could help with a tip! I am totally lost. I hope everything was understood.
thankyou
@ Lynn,
Re: Difference between renounce and relinquish.
The terminology can be a little confusing as renouncing is actually a relinquishing act. Anyway …
Section 349(a) of the Immigration and Nationality Act provides 7 ways in which a person can relinquish their US citizenship.
Renunciation (349(a)(5)) is the only method which takes place at a US embassy/consulate. The act itself (renunciation oath) and notification of the act occur simultaneously.
With the other six method of relinquishment, the person performs the act, and then notifies an embassy/consulate of having done so. (Relinquishing by naturalisation is s. 349(a)(1)).
Renunciation has a fee of $2350. There is no fee for relinquishing by the other six methods.
Re: “if more costs would accure for renouncing, filing requirements,international tax preparer cost, etc she would want to know the cost.”
Tax filing costs (any tax owed, accountant costs, etc) would be the same whether he renounces or relinquishes.
Re: “Will he “have” to file to receive the CLN?”
IRS plays no role in the issuance of CLNs, only Dept of State does. DoS does not look at the person’s tax records, as a person’s tax status (compliant or not) has no bearing on the person’s loss of citizenship. However, DoS does forward a copy of each CLN issued to IRS (7 FAM 1243(a)).
The person has to be tax compliant and file form 8854 with IRS by June 15th of the year following their expatriation to “log out” of IRS and avoid covered expatriate status with IRS. Whether they do this or not, the citizenship remains terminated and the CLN remains valid.
Hey guys, any thoughts on those of us who are former “US Persons” as in we hold a CLN and what happens to us when financial institutions require a “place of birth” designation for our accounts? This “place of birth” seems one sided and gives the impression that we are US Persons when we are not. Are these institutions turning over all data for those marked “USA” place of birth regardless of their current citizenship status? Today my accountant said I need to adjust my NZ company filings so they show my “Place of Birth”. I have contacted the NZ companies office to question this. I get the feeling anyone with USA place of birth will have their data turned over to the USA even if they are no longer a citizen. I said to them I have a CLN and am no longer a “US Person” so how do I ensure my data is kept private? Or do these institutions simply collate “USA” place of birth and dump all that data to the USA? Frustrating if that is the case. I don’t have anything to hide, I just don’t want my privacy violated by a foreign nation.
Each country is different. Canada is not supposed to ask and a CLN is supposed to be sufficient if they already know. NZ? Anybody’s guess. Is their IGA published?
Duke and pukekonz
This might apply??? …
[The definition of an NFFE is very broad. Essentially, it is any foreign entity that is not an FFI. An NFFE can include privately held operating businesses, professional services firms, or certain other non-publicly-traded foreign entities not involved in banking or financial-sector activities.]
Page 30 of http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/tax-policy/treaties/Documents/FATCA-Agreement-New-Zealand-6-12-2014.pdf
pukekonz,
Surely just *place of birth* is not the proper question!!!!!
We need those *Made in the USA* tattoos on our posteriors permanently removed. (Perhaps, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tattoo_removal)
***********
Re: “…Canada is not supposed to ask”
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2015/08/31/how-will-us-deemed-us-persons-in-canada-vote-on-october-19th-there-is-now-an-adcs-adsc-reply-from-the-ndp-party-to-compare-to-the-reply-from-the-liberal-party/comment-page-3/#comment-6457611
To answer my own question, here is the NZ IGA
http://www.ird.govt.nz/resources/0/3/0373c76f-6ea9-43f9-a8c5-62fb4534456e/fatca-iga.pdf
Go to page 40 and 41 and you will see that a CLN is enough to negate a US birth place. The language is word for word the same as Canada’s. In fact, every country which has signed an IGA has fallen for the exact language. If the FI doesn’t accept that, threaten holy hell.
Hi Guys, thanks for the info! So as far as I can tell it sounds like I have to state place of birth as USA, then it somewhat feels like the onus is on me to make sure these institutions know I am no longer a US Person? It should be interesting as I doubt the NZ Companies office has a specific designation for those US Persons with a CLN. I am eager to hear back from them. I checked with my banks a while back and they went through my accounts and said nothing in them shows me as being a US Person. I find it amazing that these countries are changing their systems and going through all of this expense to pander to the US. Every day 3rd generation kiwis have banks and more asking where they were born!
I relinquished when I became a Canadian citizen in 1993. I had always filed my US taxes every year since I came to Canada up to the year I became a Canadian citizen. I never heard of resident based or citizen based taxation. I thought all the world was the same. and filed to the countries they are citizen. I was frightened when I learned about FATCA. Brock gave me the information I needed to know that I did relinquish in 1993.. I got my CLN on May 2nd, 2014 after waiting almost a year. The US Counsel was eager for me to Renounce (and pay those big bucks – $450 at the time) but I knew my circumstances was relinquishment. The counsel officials were surprised I knew so much. Before FATCA I crossed the border occasionally. One agent said I was not duel but only an American. I was not told to get an American passport..This was before 2010 FATCA. Since getting my CLN I have crossed the border 4 times. I was never questioned about my citizenship.. No problems. I am in their computer obviously. I carry a copy of my CLN in my wallet. I gave copies of my CLN to my bank and credit union. The managers there were not at all knowledgeable of FATCA (so they say). Recently
my bank manager has told me that I was not on the list for her to contact about American citizenship. Giving her a copy of my CLN did help me. I hope September 15th judgement is in our favour. I find myself so very thankful to be Only Canadian.
I’m not sure this is the place to post, but as an update to my relinquishment made in February 2015 at the Calgary Consulate, I’m happy to report that I received my CLN in the mail just a couple of days ago! Woo hoo! I know some relinquishers have waited up to 18 months, so I am very grateful and relieved. My daughter renounced in March and received her CLN last week. My son renounced in June, so his is still on its way, but I see light at the end of this dark tunnel.
@readytogo, Great news! Congratulations to you and the kids. Beat the proposed $2,350 fee the US is going to place on future relinquishers too. Talk about good timing. Well done to all of you.
@readytogo,
Fantastic news! Congratulations!
I just filled Information and tax returns under ‘Streamline offshore’. It took me more then 4 months to collect all the information and then file a tax returns. I will not be able to do this if I get disable in future. IRS is not proving any assistance. Question is regarding Page 2 of Instructions 8854, item 3 under ‘Who Must file’ It says ‘If you expatriated after June 16, 2008, the expatriation rules apply to you if any of the following statements apply………..3. You fail to certify on Form 8854 that you have complied with all federal tax obligations for the 5 tax years preceding the date of your expatriation.’ If I can certify as per Item 3 but to do so I do have to file form 8854 and do I have to file rest of the form? This is like a ‘circular reference’ error in excel work sheet. Do I have to really file form 8854 as I am meeting item 1 and 2 and filled all the applicable tax returns and paid all taxes?
Country of residence: India
SGada. You might get more information on the Expat taxes and FBAR thread. It’s not clear what you want to do.
You have caught up on your tax filings by the streamlined programme.
Have you renounced citizenship? I guess you have.
You are supposed to file 8854 in any case. However, if you live in India, don’t plan on having anything to do with the U.S., and don’t file, then there isn’t much they can do.
Provided your net worth is under 2 million US$, you will not be a so called covered expatriate if you file 8854. It isn’t that much more work so it is probably worthwhile to file it.
SGada, yes if you want to finally be free of the US tax system. Despite the fact that you’ve done all the filing until you file 8854 you’d still be considered a “covered expatriate” regardless of having filed and paid any taxes or being under the other two limits.
As Duke of Devon says, if you have no connections to the States and don’t ever plan to vist or have anything to do with the States in the future you could decide not to file it. But that would leave you wondering/worrying if they may come after you in some way in the future. For peace of mind, having done the bulk of the work in getting compliant, I would file the 8854 and be completely done with it.
Admin I wanted to come back to this thread. I searched on the sidebar but couldn’t find a link. Is there one I missed’?
Amazingly, i entered Duke and IBS in google and it was the first hit. Is there anything google can”t do?
There is a link (the last link in the post) http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/how-to-renouncerelinquish/, (How to Renounce/Relinquish) titled *Relinquishment and Renunciation Data*, under *Important Information* heading on the right-hand sidebar where links to several related posts are gathered.
Thank you.
Thank you very much Duke of Devon and Medea Fleecestealer. I got my answer. I am tax compliant. I have not taken any other citizenship and may not do so in near future. Question was asked as I did not understand the Instruction of 8854, in case I decide to give up my citizenship. Doing paperwork is uncalled for and unnecessary burden impose on US citizen abroad. One may not remain healthy till death to do all the paperwork. It takes a lot to understand the requirements.
SGada. If you have not expatriated by renouncing your US citizenship ( I presume you are a U.S. citizen) then 8854 doesn’t apply to you. I don’t understand your problem.
My CLN finally arrived today! I’ve given the details up through the renunciation appointment previously so I’m just going to outline the chronology here.
September, 2014 – I requested by email an appointment at the Toronto Consulate and received forms to fill out and return before they would give me an appointment.
Early October, 2014 – I sent in the forms and received a reply that they were not making any new appointments, I should resubmit my request with the forms early in November
November 1, 2014 (1 minute past midnight ) – I resubmitted my request and forms and received an appointment for early March, 2015
Early March, 2015 – I renounced without any problems (as I recall I was there about 2 hours). I was told to expect my CLN in 4 to 6 months
Mid August, 2015 – I emailed the Consulate to confirm advice I had been given about travelling to the US before receiving my CLN and received a reply stating my CLN was pending with the State Department in Washington
Mid January, 2016 – I emailed the Consulate requesting advice on how to follow-up on my “long-delayed” CLN and received a reply that they would follow up with the State Department in Washington.
Late January, 2016 – My CLN was approved according to the date on the document
February 3, 2016 – I received my CLN just short of 11 months after I renounced.
Wouldn’t it be nice if $2350 USD at least bought fast, efficient service!
Congratulations and thanks for adding to your information for the Consulate Directory, RLee.
Yes, wouldn’t it be nice.
@ RLee
Congratulations! It’s great to hear your release papers have finally arrived. An 11 month hold on a straight forward CLN is disgraceful. I think your January e-mail was the prodding that got their rears in gear.
EmBee, I’m sure it is. I was actually about to phone the State Department in Washington myself but decided I wanted to be able to quote a current reply from the Consulate. I was quite surprised when they said they would follow up but my message had made it very clear that I would and that I was more than a bit annoyed. (Not that I expected anyone to care).
I’m an accidental American. I was born in Europe to an American father. After my parents divorced we moved to Canada. I was 8. I have never lived or worked in the US. I don’t even have a SSN. I also have never filed taxes as up until recently had no idea I had too. In April 2002, I made an oath to the Queen and became a Canadian citizen, with the understanding that I was giving up my US citizenship. Since becoming a Canadian I have never used my US passport (it expired in 2006) and have travelled to the US numerous times on my Canadian passport. I have not voted, or used the Consulate services in anyway because I considered myself a Canadian. I recently got a new financial advisor and he had indicated that if I did not have a Certificate of loss of citizenship that I was still an American. Now I’m freaking out!!! How should I go about getting this Loss of Citizenship certificate? Will I have to file 5 years worth of taxes (something I cannot afford), or can I just go to the Consulate with my proof of citizenship and inform them of my relinquishment of citizenship 14 years ago. I’ve read a lot of comments on this site and seem to be getting a variety of ways to handle this. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated as I have no clue what the best way to handle this is. Thanks.
@ S. B. easiest way is to ignore it. You’re not in the IRS’s system as you have no SSN so what can they do? They don’t know you, have no clue you even exist tax-wise. The bank is happy because you don’t have a US birthplace so they’re not going to complain.
If you want a CLN then yes, you can make an appointment (two probably) at the embassy to claim your relinquishment via your Canadian citizenship. As you did this before June 2004 you won’t have any tax forms to fill in.
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/06/19/if-your-expatriation-date-is-before-2004-the-rules-are-different/
How did your new tax advisor know of your American connection though? Did you tell him/her/them? If so, why?