Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 2
US RELINQUISHMENT RENUNCIATION.m2
Above is a link to data we are compiling on Relinquishments and Renunciations — a work in progress.
(We are starting Part 2 as Part 1 has now over 1,000 comments.) Link to “Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 1”
This Relinquishment and Renunciation database corresponds with the Consulate Report Directory, which tracks individual experiences for each Consulate, along with a timeline chart.
Note: We are using numbers instead of blog names for this public posting so there will be no compromise of private information. Your facts will help give a snapshot of relinquishment and renunciation activity and where that occurs.
Please submit information in the comments below (or someone can contact you privately if you leave a message).
This database and the Consulate Report Directory have proven valuable resources for those new to the subject of relinquishment and renunciation. They can see numbers for and read others’ experiences of relinquishment or renunciation at various US consulates throughout the world — as reported by participants of the Isaac Brock site.
Thanks for your addition to the Relinquishment and Renunciation database. Your input will definitely help others.
@Graham Vapors
Also note that if banks were really consistent about this, they would need to ask each and every customer to fill out a W-8BEN, since according to the US of Arrogance, anyone could be be a “US person” for not so obvious reasons, i.e. having a c/o address in the USA, having a standing order to wire funds to the USA, having spent too many vacation days in the USA, etc. One doesn’t have to be a US citizen or have been born there to be a “US person”. Far from it.
Yes, and under the IGA the banks have to check them all out. Means a granny in Europe has to sign a W-8BEN if she sends birhtday money to her grandkid’s account in the States. Ridiculous!
i do not believe that every customer of a Swiss bank now must fill in a W-8BEN (US IRS tax form). This is cannot be true.
When is a W-8BEN required?
it’s not for sending money to the US? and it should not be for receiving money from the US?
It should only be when receiving
Certain types of US source income are not subject to foreign-person withholding. Some examples of such income are:
• Broker proceeds (e.g., sales of US stocks / securities)
• Short-term OID (183 days or less)
• Bank deposit interest
• Foreign source interest, dividends, rents, or royalties
• Proceeds from a wager placed by a nonresident alien individual in the games of blackjack, baccarat, craps, roulette, or big-6 wheel (a later blog post will cover US tax issues on gambling winnings of foreign persons)
However, you may still be required to submit Form W-8BEN to claim an exception from US information reporting and so-called “backup withholding” for these types of US source income.
http://blogs.angloinfo.com/us-tax/2012/12/24/what-is-form-w-8ben-and-what-is-it-used-for/
@justme, the criteria from both the Swiss and Canadian IGA’s for the electronic search.
“a) Identification of the Account Holder as a U.S. citizen or resident;
b) Unambiguous indication of a U.S. place of birth;
c) Current U.S. mailing or residence address (including a U.S. postoffice box);
d) Current U.S. telephone number;
e) Standing instructions to transfer funds to an account maintained in the United States;
f) Currently effective power of attorney or signatory authority granted to a person with a U.S. address
g) An “in-care-of” or “hold mail” address that is the sole address the Reporting Canadian Financial Institution has on file for the Account Holder. In the case of a Preexisting Individual Account that is a Lower Value Account, an “in-care-of” address outside the United States or “hold mail” address shall not be treated as U.S.indicia.”
https://www.fin.gc.ca/treaties-conventions/pdf/FATCA-eng.pdf (pages 21/22)
So if a Swiss granny has a standing order in place at her bank to send money to her grandson’s bank account in the States then yes, she will need to sign a W-8BEN or equivalent document. As I said – ridiculous!
Hello all,
Could you tell me where to go for information on exactly what to do for final filing. I received CLN this year and July 2014 was relinquishment meeting at consulate, so need to do so by then. I know I kept a thread somewhere, but can’t find it! thanks!
@Swanee, you need to file the 8854 form by the 15th June this year.
http://search.irs.gov/search?q=8854&output=xml_no_dtd&proxystylesheet=irs_portals_frontend&client=irs_portals_frontend&oe=UTF-8&ie=UTF-8&num=10&ud=1&exclude_apps=1&site=default_collection&numgm=5&requiredfields=-archive%3A1
Swanee and Medea and others,
Look at IRS Form 4868: http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f4868.pdf
and http://hodgen.com/chapter-4-are-you-a-covered-expatriate/
File Form 8854 on Time
The certification must be made on a timely-filed Form 8854.
Regarding filing of 8854, with extensions (automatic and applied for) for your tax return:
Form 8854 is filed as an attachment to your expatriation year tax return.
For people living outside the United States, the filing deadline for a U.S. income tax return is usually (but not always) June 15. You can also get a six month extension to file your tax returns. This means if you have a June 15 filing deadline, you can have as late as December 15 to file a timely income tax return.
http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/U.S.-Citizens-and-Resident-Aliens-Abroad—Automatic-6-Month-Extension-of-Time-to-File
http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/U.S.-Citizens-and-Resident-Aliens-Abroad—Extensions-of-Time-to-File
Got my CLN but still haven’t filed my final returns or 8854 over 1.5yrs later. So, I know I am now a covered expat but I have no assets. I am still too financially strapped to have an expat tax person file all my returns and other data. I can’t do this myself because 1) it’s over my head 2) i have no time in the day to even put into this. I am just trying to survive the best I can. No idea what will come of all this, but what can I do? We’re currently trying to downsize our mortgage so we are not struggling and if we can make that happen it might free up the 7k NZ I will need to get all this stuff filed. For now I will not set foot into the US until I file all of this stuff one day. I’ll probably be given fines I can’t pay anyway and still avoid the US, or maybe by then my poor ass will be extradited to a prison camp somewhere because I was too poor to file.
@pukekonz: I sympathize. Thankfully the IRS, too, is in over its head. Good luck
Hey @pukekonz
I think there are a lot of folks in the same position. People who after spending potentially tens of thousands to catchup on taxes only to find out they owe nothing – but have just spend $$$ on doing the filings. Now we live in fear for the rest of our lives.
Very unfair to be born an American and taxed like one even if you have never lived there.
Hi justme,
Thanks for commenting. There’s another Just Me on the site – he’s been commenting since 2011 – and it might get confusing. I was wondering if you could modify your blogname to help avoid confusion? That would be appreciated – and your comments are appreciated too!
@ pacifica777
Do you think Just Me will ever come back for a visit? I know he mentioned going hiking but that’s one mighty looooong hike! There’s been nothing on his twitter since late December. He spent an exorbitant amount of LCUs (and money) getting back on the good side of the IRS and then he was so generous to pass more LCUs forward to us for 3 years. Miss him.
EmBee,
It will be a *very loooooong hike*. For those, like me, who miss the expertise and fervor of Just Me:
I think it’s called *burn-out* and is not uncommon for others who have worked so valiantly. While we could surely use Just Me now, there is much in the archives of Brock that will never be dated and will continue to help each of us, new and old.
Hello justme — More information re W-8BEN is in my newer blog post from March 9
‘Understanding Form W-8BEN and Form W-9 in the Brave New FATCA World’
http://blogs.angloinfo.com/us-tax/2015/03/09/3023/
Check this out guys. Looks like the IRS are going down in flames.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/mar/31/irs-ignoring-60-percent-taxpayers-calls/
http://thehill.com/policy/finance/237510-irs-chief-to-gop-you-cant-get-rid-of-us
Hi pacifica777 and all
(formally JustMe)
I thought i was the only JustMe 🙂
Ive been on this for 3 years but i dont think i’ve ever spoken about hiking.
hmm, maybe i used a different login or maybe there are two of us.
Regardless will change my login to be clear.
I will now be known as
justAnotherPersonPersecutedForTheirBirthCitizenship
Virginia
Thanks for the info on the W8Ben – terrifying.
IRS is everywhere
I went to the consulate at the beginning of this week to relinquish my US citizenship. From first initial contact until the time I got an appointment took a little over two months. All and all everything went quite well. The consulate staff were friendly and helpful. When my CLN arrives (hopefully) I will post a more detailed account of my experience. I have two questions/worries. First of all, the vice consul asked at least three times if my parents were American, were they born in America and are they dual nationals (of the country in which I have just become a citizen of). I can’t understand what relevance this could have to the whole proceedings. I was born in the US and was up until the time of expatriating only a US citizen. Shouldn’t that have sufficed. My other worry is that I was told the relinquishment process can take months (they were unable to say how long it would take for the DoS to decide) and during this time if I need to travel to the US I must travel with a temporary American travel document (issued by them) and not the passport of the citizenship I now have. I asked if traveling with such a document (a US document) would negatively influence the relinquishment process and he said it might. I have no intention of traveling until the whole process is figured out, but I do have family in the US and if there were a family emergency I would like to be able to travel without jeopardizing the relinquishment process. It really seems a bit unfair.
What is ” I must travel with a temporary American travel document (issued by them)”
I would imagine an emergency passport as my passport is being sent to the DoS along with my paperwork.
However, the vice-consul used the word “travel document”.
Fledermaus, I renouned in Canada in March of this year. I was told if I travel to the US before receiving my CLN I should use my Canadian passport and just explain the situation. I have tucked my receipt for the fee in my passport but will not show it unless asked to explain myself. I have read here that some who applied to relinquish were given zero dollar receipts and told they could use them. I have also read here of people who were allowed to relinquish despite having followed instructions to get a US passport for travel to the US prior to relinquishing
@Fledermaus:
“I have two questions/worries. First of all, the vice consul asked at least three times if my parents were American, were they born in America and are they dual nationals (of the country in which I have just become a citizen of). I can’t understand what relevance this could have to the whole proceedings. I was born in the US and was up until the time of expatriating only a US citizen. Shouldn’t that have sufficed.”
My opinion is that the vice-consul was trying to determine whether you were a dual citizen from birth. If you were, you would only be eligible for renunciation and not relinquishment.
Also, congratulations on getting an appointment and hope the relinquishment is approved.
RLee, I do have a letter from the consulate stating that the relinquishment process is under way. However, the letter is not in English. I would need an ESTA visa to get into the US and this might be denied. The whole situation might not come to pass, so I will not ruminate too long on the subject. I suppose I would just try to get a visa and hope for the best.
Innocente, Thanks. The whole experience turned out more pleasant than I thought it would.
My parents are “only” American and I have no claim to any other citizenship by birth, so this shouldn’t be a problem.