Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 2
US RELINQUISHMENT RENUNCIATION.m2
Above is a link to data we are compiling on Relinquishments and Renunciations — a work in progress.
(We are starting Part 2 as Part 1 has now over 1,000 comments.) Link to “Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 1”
This Relinquishment and Renunciation database corresponds with the Consulate Report Directory, which tracks individual experiences for each Consulate, along with a timeline chart.
Note: We are using numbers instead of blog names for this public posting so there will be no compromise of private information. Your facts will help give a snapshot of relinquishment and renunciation activity and where that occurs.
Please submit information in the comments below (or someone can contact you privately if you leave a message).
This database and the Consulate Report Directory have proven valuable resources for those new to the subject of relinquishment and renunciation. They can see numbers for and read others’ experiences of relinquishment or renunciation at various US consulates throughout the world — as reported by participants of the Isaac Brock site.
Thanks for your addition to the Relinquishment and Renunciation database. Your input will definitely help others.
@OddlyNamed, that’s no good because he’s relinquished so doesn’t have a receipt as there’s no fee for relinquishment, only renunication. He needs a travel letter from the embassy/consulate just in case.
@oddly Named, @Medea Fleecestealer That is the dilemma. I’m trying to relinquish based on having naturalized as a German citizen in February.
@Fledermaus
Which consulate are you going to? When I renounced in Frankfurt, I received such a confirmation letter (without having requested it) in German. You’d need to have it officially translated to English if you want to use it in the USA.
@Fledermaus: we have reports from relinquishers too of being able to use their non-US passport to enter the US while the CLN is pending. Apparently the information about the pending CLN is available on the CBP computers. Obviously I cannot foresee whether this will change as a result of last week’s FAM update, but keep in mind that many relinquishers never even had US passports in the first place
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/11/29/travelling-to-the-us-while-renunciation-is-in-progress/comment-page-1/#comment-102249
With regards to whether you’re still a U.S. citizen after committing an expatriating act but before getting the CLN, there is a difference of opinion among US courts about that.
@ notamused @Eric Ok, sounds like I need to insist on some kind of letter that CLN is pending and then just travel on my German passport. The Consulate in Munich doesn’t seem to have dealt with many relinquishment cases up until now.
By the was it took three weeks from application of German citizenship to my naturalization date… the Germans are really turbocharged and my case worker was super helpful and friendly. Really made me happy to become German. If only the US side was so fast and easy.
@Fledermaus
My experience was also very pleasant on the German side. Glad to hear it all went well for you, too. 🙂
RLee, just want to wish you luck tomorrow with your consulate appointment. Here’s hoping all goes smoothly for you!
Thank you, Graham! I’m hoping to sleep better tomorrow night. It will still be tax season but I’m hoping to feel a little less tense with that light at the end of the tunnel.
Fledermaus I’ve read elsewhere on Brock that some relinquishers were given a zero dollar receipt to use with their “other” passport until their CLN came in. I don’t know that would help you at this point but maybe you could get the Consulate to issue you one if they don’t want to write a letter.
@Rlee Thanks for the tip. I did mention the need for a letter to the consulate clerk I spoke to last week and he said he would speak to the vice-consul about it. I sent all the forms and documents in two days ago and I am now waiting to get an appointment at the consulate. Hope it doesn’t take to long (the clerk said probably about 4 weeks).
DONE! I renounced at the Consulate in Toronto this afternoon. (In a comment last November I detailed my experience in getting the appointment.) Everything went very smoothly today. Consulate staff seemed very comfortable and familiar with the process (as well they should be by now). They were courteous and matter of fact about providing the service. When I arrived at the consulate about 10 minutes before the appointed time 3 or 4 people were already in the line up for American Citizen services. (It turned out they had other business there). The gentleman who arrived a couple of minutes after me turned out to be another Brocker, which made passing the time in the waiting area between the steps of the process much more pleasant for me. A large sign outside the building displayed a long list of things you are not allowed to bring in with you. I was glad I had woken up this morning with the realization that the “smart key” for my van was an electronic device and I had to figure out how to lock that part of it in the van along with my cellphone. At 2:00 pm the security guard began waving us in. Immediately inside the door you go through airport style security and then are literally ushered through to the elevator to the third floor. Step 1: Coming off the elevator I had a brief wait for my turn to approach Window A where I turned in all the documents I had gathered and prepared in advance. I was asked one or two questions just confirming information that I had provided on the documents — that I do use my birth name (although while I was married I did use my husband’s surname) and that I acquired Canadian citizenship through naturalization. She then gave me a number and explained I would be called for an “interview”. Step 2: The wait was not long but 3 or 4 numbers higher than mine were called before mine so at a moment when the cashier was not busy, I asked and she confirmed that was not unusual. I was then called to Window D where a different person greeted me and then said “So you are here to request determination of possible loss of citizenship” (reading off the title on form DS-4079). I stated firmly, “I am here to renounce my citizenship”. We acknowledged that the form had two purposes and he proceeded. He paged through the six page form rhetorically asking one or two questions about the facts such as my place of birth and then said “so you want to go ahead with this” to which I firmly answered “yes”. He passed all my paper work to me along with a form to give the cashier that noted the fee I was to pay. He said I would be called back to his window in about 45 minutes to swear my oath. Step 3: I took the paperwork down to the cashier and passed all of it through to her. I had brought American cash, so waited while she counted it and then made a stroke with a marker on each bill to confirm it was not counterfeit. She printed two receipts which she added to the pile of paperwork telling me I would get my receipt when I made my oath. Step 4: I don’t think it was 45 minutes later I was called back to Window D before the other Brocker who had been ahead of me at each step so far. The same gentleman I had spoken with before put me under oath, had me sign DS-4081 (re: understanding the consequences and ramifications of renunciation), and had me repeat the oath phrase by phrase after him and sign DS-4080. He then said “we are told to say you will receive your CLN in four to six months. Recently they have been coming in sooner than that but I’m saying four to six months.” I asked about travel to the U.S. before the CLN comes in. He said just to use my Canadian passport and explain the situation. I decided to go with that (and carry the receipt for the renunciation fee).
I don’t know if it was because I seemed so fully prepared and firm in my resolve but there was no questioning of why I was doing it, no discussion of the gravity of my decision, no set speech or anything of the like. It was about an hour from the time on my number ticket until the time I was done — about 90 minutes from the time of my appointment.
There were four of us there at some stage of the renunciation process. The other two had walked directly up to the security guard (separately) just before 2:00 and were each waved in without being asked to join the queue (or show ID as far as I could tell), so I wondered if they might be returning. The first of them had paperwork with her but seemed to have problems with more than one aspect — she had quite a bit more conversation at Step 2 than I did but I think she did end up completing the process. The other one was filling out the forms in the waiting room and then brought them back to Window A. I don’t think he did complete the process. So there may have been 4 appointments for loss of citizenship this afternoon at the Toronto consulate.
A note about the paperwork: As with the tax forms, you find yourself trying to fit a square peg into a round hole filling out the Request for Determination of Possible Loss of United States Citizenship when what you intend to do is renounce. Having read here of someone having their CLN denied because their intent on this form was misinterpreted, I stated very clearly in the answer to question 7 ON PAGE ONE, that I was completing the form to initiate my renunciation. (I wanted them to have that in mind as they read the rest of the questionnaire). Again in my answer to question 18b on page 4, I commented “I made my decision to renounce my U.S. citizenship more recently” (when I took Canadian citizenship in 1993 my intent was to be a dual citizen and I had documented that when I next renewed my U.S. passport).
FYI: The email from the consulate says they will accept Canadian cash — it does not mention they use an exchange rate that is significantly less favourable than the current unfavourable bank rate. I was happy to have U.S. cash and happy to have arranged that in advance with my bank so they could get in large bills — waiting for her to count and check 24 bills was long enough. They do also accept credit cards but having read here on Brock of the credit card processing being down when they were at the consulate — which could happen anywhere and since the consulate is over 100 miles from my home, I brought U.S. cash.
Thanks so much to everyone who has contributed information about their experience here. It’s been incredibly helpful. I will post again when I receive my CLN.
@ RLee
That’s a wonderfully detailed account of your renunciation appointment. Being as well prepared as you were went a long way towards that smooth sail I’m sure. Congratulations! Just in case @pacifica777 misses it in this thread (she rarely misses though) you could post it here too …
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/consulate2/
@ RLee,
Congratulations! I’m glad everything went smoothly with your renunciation. Thanks very much for your very detailed report! It’s really helpful for others and takes some of the “mystery” out of dealing with the unfamiliar situation of renouncing.
Thanks, EmBee,
I usually see reports wherever they’re posted, but it’s definitely possible to miss one (and I have).
@ all,
If I miss adding your report or updating your CLN tracking chart, please don’t hesitate to remind me!
@RLee
Excellent post! Your experience closely echoes mine, but you are so much more eloquent than I am.
I was told that it would be “about six months” for my CLN to arrive, so it’s nice to hear that they have been arriving faster than that.
Thank you for sharing, RLee. 🙂
I have been asked to sign a W-9 or a W-8BEN by my financial institution. I am not comfortable signing either form.
Has anyone renounced and, prior to receiving their CLN, been asked to sign these forms?
@Graham Vapors, I got the W-9 form from my Swiss bank the same week I renounced. I contacted my UBS bank manager and told him I’d renounced earlier that week and he agreed that the period for signing the W-9 would be extended from the end of March (I renounced on the 4th March) to July in the hope that the CLN would arrive before then. I collected my CLN in mid-April and e-mailed a copy to my manger and he sent me back a US/non-US Person status form to fill in and sign, but not a W-8BEN.
What I didn’t do was send a copy to PostFinance where I also have an account. They sent me a letter later in the year regarding US tax compliance and the need to possibly enter the OVDP. I wrote back sending them a copy of my CLN and telling them I’d already entered Streamlined. Despite having a copy of my CLN I still had to sign a W-8BEN as a non-US citizen, even though the CLN should have been sufficient for their record keeping under the IGA. The difference may have been that UBS had already been fined by the US over tax evasion issues and so were more au fait with FATCA requirements while PostFinance only opted in once the Swiss IGA had been agreed.
You may not be happy about it, but be careful. In Switzerland refusing to sign one or the other could lead to you account being frozen until you do. Don’t know if the banks will go down a similar road in Canada, but the possibility is there. Under the Canadian IGA you do need to provide either a W-8BEN or a CLN.
http://www.fin.gc.ca/treaties-conventions/pdf/FATCA-eng.pdf
@Graham Vapors – If I find myself in this situation, I will first try the reasonable explanation path to self-certifying as a non-U.S. person and provide a copy of my receipt for my renunciation fee.
Medea Fleecestealer, I appreciate your sharing your experience. The people who have contacted me do not seem to be patient — the language they use is quite demanding.
RLee, I provided details and a copy of my renunciation receipt and Canadian citizenship documentation. They still want forms signed.
@Graham Vapors
if I were in your situation and could I would tell the banks to get stuffed, I am a Canadian citizen and not signing any stinking forms stating that i am anything but a CANADIAN CITIZEN and then close out all my accounts and go to a “local client base” credit union.
if the banks start to lose business because of FATCA perhaps they will take notice of that fact that fatca is hurting them in the pocket.
Mettleman, coincidentally I’ve been looking online at credit unions this afternoon. Unfortunately the only one in my town is Meridian (I read that they question the citizenship of new clients).
But once I move — later this year — there are several credit unions in my new town and you can bet I’ll ditch the institution that I’m currently with, just on principle.
@Graham Vapors the first question to ask the is the institution a “local client base” one.
I believe somewhere here on brock there was a list started of which ones were and were not.
I know in my instance I knew before hand that the credit union in my town was however it took me pushing the assistant manager into asking higher ups for the correct answer. she was confused as to what “local client base” meant re..fatca
don’t give in to the blood suckers…….
Graham Vapors. I gather you have already renounced/relinquished.
You could quite honestly sign a W8-ben stating you are not a US citizen. I understand your reluctance. Another alternative is to move to a different FI. When they ask ‘are you a US person?’ you could just say no. They are not supposed to ask your place of birth.
@Graham Vapors, I was slightly in error on my previous post. Both the Canadian and Swiss IGA’s state:
“Where the Account Holder information unambiguously indicates a U.S. place of birth, the Reporting Canadian Financial Institution obtains, or has previously reviewed and maintains a record of:
(1) A self-certification that the Account Holder is neither a U.S. citizen nor a U.S. resident for tax purposes (which may be on an IRS Form W-8 or other similar agreed form);
(2) A non-U.S. passport or other government-issued identification evidencing the Account Holder’s citizenship or nationality in a country other than the United States; and
(3) A copy of the Account Holder’s Certificate of Loss of Nationality of the United States or a reasonable explanation of:
(a) The reason the Account Holder does not have such a certificate despite relinquishing U.S. citizenship;”
Unfortunately, it isn’t a case of OR with these. You need to provide the 1) W-8BEN, 2) a copy of your Canadian passport and 3) the CLN or a reason why you don’t have one. This is what I had to do for PostFinance. Having provided the W-8BEN and the CLN I had to pop into a post office branch so they could make a copy of my British passport to complete their records.
@PortlandPLC, that may be possible, but it could also trigger a freezing of the account as he could be seen to be trying to avoid having the account reported/documented. This has happend here in Switzerland. Also I don’t know whether under Canadian law/FATCA the FI’s can now use the Declaration of States of the Account Holder as a Non-US or a US Person form. This asks the follwing yes/no questions:
Are you a US citizen?
Were you born in the US (or a US territory)?
Are you a US Green Card Holder (irrespective of expiry date)?
Are you a resident of the US for US tax purposes?
Irrespective of the Substantial Physical Presence Test above, are you still domiciled in the US?
If they can, then lying about the second question could cause problems further down the line.
@Graham Vapors
Banks are now starting to report customer information for the year 2014 (they must complete this until mid-year 2015) and so they need to verify customers’ status. I’ve also recently been asked to submit a W-8BEN form, despite the fact that “US persons” aren’t even allowed to open an account at that particular bank. They threatened to close the account if it’s not submitted. Although I also resent having to fill out any IRS form (the USA is a foreign country and I have nothing to do with them), you should know that W-8BEN is kept by the bank and not sent to the IRS. It’s just a means for the bank to cover their own ass and transfer the liability from themselves to you.