Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 2
US RELINQUISHMENT RENUNCIATION.m2
Above is a link to data we are compiling on Relinquishments and Renunciations — a work in progress.
(We are starting Part 2 as Part 1 has now over 1,000 comments.) Link to “Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 1”
This Relinquishment and Renunciation database corresponds with the Consulate Report Directory, which tracks individual experiences for each Consulate, along with a timeline chart.
Note: We are using numbers instead of blog names for this public posting so there will be no compromise of private information. Your facts will help give a snapshot of relinquishment and renunciation activity and where that occurs.
Please submit information in the comments below (or someone can contact you privately if you leave a message).
This database and the Consulate Report Directory have proven valuable resources for those new to the subject of relinquishment and renunciation. They can see numbers for and read others’ experiences of relinquishment or renunciation at various US consulates throughout the world — as reported by participants of the Isaac Brock site.
Thanks for your addition to the Relinquishment and Renunciation database. Your input will definitely help others.
Sorry, maybe I have butted into the wrong thread. I do not live in Germany, but rather in Toronto. So there is a substantial gain on my principal residence.
I grew up in the U.S. but moved here in 1980.
I want to cover all my bases and be truly rid of the U.S. government. I want to sleep at night. So I want to make sure I have reasonable valued my assets before filing the final forms.
(Even so, I still don’t trust the U.S. government not to change the rules by the time I have to file my final return)
@ Graham Vapors
This thread is as good as any — no hard-and-fast rules here at Brock. Nobody can precisely put a value on a property until it is actually sold and even then that value exists for only an instant. All you can do is a good-faith, best guess and even if that seems “loosey-goosey” (and it is NOT being a “tax cheat”) there’s really not much point getting anal retentive about it. Of course, my advice is not even close to being professional but it would be to just add something to the property tax assessment if you are worried. If you’re not near the $2M mark it will not matter anyway.
Totally off topic (maybe) but Rick Mercer did a good rant about the FEAR factor last night.
http://www.cbc.ca/player/Shows/Shows/The+Rick+Mercer+Report/ID/2657083538/
You’ve got that right, Calgary411.
EmBee, thanks for the laugh. Yes, I *do* need lots of rubber bathmats to keep myself safe!
Seriously though, I’ve been caught off-guard and burned enough that I’ve learned to be over-zealous and make sure every detail is as good as I can make it, and this process will be no exception.
As I’ve stated before, I won’t be sleeping well until my final papers are filed.
@Graham Vapors if you actually sell your home within a couple of months of renouncing (or any time before you have to file), I don’t know why you wouldn’t use the price of the sale as the value of the home (using the exchange rate on the day before your renunciation, of course). It’s a perfect solution and doesn’t cost you any extra.
@Graham Vapors – Since you are from Toronto I assume you renouced at the Consulate there. My appointment there is coming up on Monday. I wonder if you have any advice or information. Did you encounter anything unexpected at your appointment?
RLee, I am planning to fix up my house before I sell it. I am hoping that the current value is not as high as my “fixed up” house value.
I am not sure that we get to use the exchange rate of the day of our renunciation for the f8854 or if we have to use the annual average that the Bank of Canada / State Department uses for income tax returns. (Does anybody know the answer to this?)
As for the Toronto consulate, I wish I had some advice to give you. I did not take any electronic devices in with me. There is a comfortable Druxie’s Deli just up Simcoe Street if you have a friend or relative going with you — he or she can hold onto your phone, ipod, etc. and sit there with a cup of tea while you get your business done.
I didn’t encounter anything unexpected at the consulate. Everyone was courteous to me. I didn’t wait too long. The consulate waiting room is rather dated but comfortable. Overall, the process was surprisingly uneventful.
Ah, I *do* remember one thing about the Toronto consulate. I arrived outside the door around 15 minutes early. There was nobody around other than the security guard, who asked me when my appointment was. When I told him, he told me to come back in 15 minutes. So I went and got a cup of tea and came back 15 minutes later — and there were eight people in line! They all got in ahead of me and I had to wait (because they give you a number when you go in). So my advice is, if you show up early, stand your ground!
R.Lee,
There is a Consulate Report Directory, maintained by the ongoing work of Pacifica777. Besides other information regarding forms, etc. for claims to relinquishment and renunciations, the link will give reports from others of their expatriation appointments at various US Consulates in Canada and around the world, as reported to Brock. (Add yours to make it more complete for others after you.): http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/consulate2/
Thanks Graham Vapors. That ‘s good to know about the line up. I had been wondering that very thing. Were there 8 others also going in to renounce??
Calgary411 Thanks. I studied those consulate reports the first day I found this site. I will check back to see if there is any updated information. I have been posting my saga to date and will certainly update again next week.
Would it be possible to get the direct link to this thread back on the side bar of the main page as it used to be? It’s not obvious where the link is now, and when there are no “Recent Comments” which reference it, it tends to fade into obscurity.
I am wondering if it would make sense to hang on to my US passport during the time it takes them to process my relinquishment (in case of a family emergency in the US). According to the Foreign Affairs Manual (FAM) 1227 e 4 (and yes I did read through the whole thing…nothing like a bit of light reading) it does seem possible to keep your US passport and then hand it in when the CLN arrives. It would mean another trip to the consulate, but if anything unexpected happened I could still travel to US. Or would it be possible to get a certificate from the Consulate saying that a Loss of Nationality case is in progress which would allow me to travel with my German passport. I don’t want to do anything that will lessen my chances of getting the CLN, but you never know if a family crisis might occur. Any experience with this?
Use your German passport! Remember, you’re no longer American (even if it takes longer for the USA to recognize that fact) and shouldn’t use the US passport for anything at all.
I agree. See if the embassy/consulate will give you a letter saying your relinquishment is being processed and you’re waiting for your CLN to arrive.
@ notamused How can I use my German passport if the US doesn’t allow me. How would I get back into the country. Here is the Text from the FAM :
If the intended expatriate advises the post that he or she needs the U.S. passport immediately because of intended travel to the United States, the consular officer should return the passport to the individual for such travel only until the loss of nationality case is approved. When post receives the approved Certificate of Loss of Nationality for the individual, post should inform the individual to appear in person at post to return the passport and receive the CLN. The CLN should not be provided to the individual unless the passport is returned. If the individual reports the passport as stolen or lost, applicable procedures should be followed;
@Fledermaus: Or would it be possible to get a certificate from the Consulate saying that a Loss of Nationality case is in progress which would allow me to travel with my German passport. — a few years ago there was a way to get such a “travel letter”, but I don’t know if this is still possible given the update to the FAM
http://www.turning-japanese.info/2012/11/can-you-travel-when-youre-in-passport.html
Also, over at the thread about the FAM update, ricard mentioned:
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2015/03/05/state-department-claims-renunciants-are-still-u-s-citizens-until-cln-approved/comment-page-1/#comment-5692402
@Fledermaus
Why wouldn’t they let you? You just need to use ESTA to get the visa waiver, which is good for 2 years and costs (I think) $15.
@Fledermaus
What you’ve quoted is relevant for those who are in limbo and don’t have any other passport yet. I was in that position for almost 2 months between renouncing (USA) and naturalizing (Germany). I didn’t leave the country during that time.
@notamused
If I don’t have a CLN ( and I just talked to Consulate and they told me it could take a y ear to a year and half) I am still considered a U.S. citizen by the U.S. govt. As a I understand U.S. citizens must travel to the US on their U.S. passports.
@Eric
I am not renunciant, but I am trying to get a CLN based on relinquishment.
The London embassy provides a “travel letter” as a matter or course. It states that a CLN has been prepared and that it has been sent to Washington for approval. The intention is that a person can show this letter if a border person were to question their using a non-US passport.
@ricard Good idea! I just asked about getting a letter that states that a CLN is being prepared and is being sent Washington (I need this for the German authorities as well to prove that I am trying to relinquish). The clerk I spoke to had never heard of this, but would discuss it with consular officer (they handle almost no relinquishments).
I asked about a travel letter when I renounced this year. The consulate simply advised me to keep the ($2350!) receipt, which is labeled as being the fee for renunciation, and to use that along with my Canadian passport for travel into the US.
@Fledermaus
If you’ve performed a relinquishing act, then using your US passport AFTER that act will likely nullify the relinquishment. Using a US passport after a relinquishing act is interpreted as: you didn’t perform the act with the intent to give up US citizenship and thus, no reliquishment.
@Fledermaus
US officials like to bully people and tell them they “must” do this or that. Nonsense. They like you to travel into the USA on a US passport (if you have one) because by doing so you waive any protection you may have from your home (non-US) country. The border bullies may frown, but I’ve not yet heard of anyone actually being denied entry.
You can use ESTA to apply for a visa waiver any time. I suspect you won’t have any trouble, but if you do, you’ll find out then. In the event that you need to go to the USA, if you have your German passport and the ESTA visa waiver (and don’t offer personal information they didn’t ask for!), they will in all likelihood not even ask if you are/were a US citizen. If they do, just say you’ve relinquished and are waiting for your CLN.