Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 2
US RELINQUISHMENT RENUNCIATION.m2
Above is a link to data we are compiling on Relinquishments and Renunciations — a work in progress.
(We are starting Part 2 as Part 1 has now over 1,000 comments.) Link to “Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 1”
This Relinquishment and Renunciation database corresponds with the Consulate Report Directory, which tracks individual experiences for each Consulate, along with a timeline chart.
Note: We are using numbers instead of blog names for this public posting so there will be no compromise of private information. Your facts will help give a snapshot of relinquishment and renunciation activity and where that occurs.
Please submit information in the comments below (or someone can contact you privately if you leave a message).
This database and the Consulate Report Directory have proven valuable resources for those new to the subject of relinquishment and renunciation. They can see numbers for and read others’ experiences of relinquishment or renunciation at various US consulates throughout the world — as reported by participants of the Isaac Brock site.
Thanks for your addition to the Relinquishment and Renunciation database. Your input will definitely help others.
Congrats @over the hedge. Thank you for sharing your experiences. Hopefully others will be able to benefit from standing firm in similar circumstances.
I just found this on the IRS website. They seem to be covering all possible loopholes, even for those who expatriated prior to June 3 2004….
Expatriation on or before June 3, 2004
The expatriation tax provisions (prior to the AJCA amendments) apply to U.S. citizens who have renounced their citizenship and long-term residents who have ended their US residency for tax purposes, if one of the principal purposes of the action is the avoidance of U.S. taxes. You are presumed to have tax avoidance as a principle purpose if:
Your average annual net income tax for the last 5 tax years ending before the date of the expatriation act is more than $124,000, or
Your net worth on the date of the expatriation act is $622,000 or more.
If you meet either of the tests shown above, you may be eligible to request a ruling from the IRS that you did not expatriate to avoid U.S. taxes. You must request this ruling within one year from the date of expatriation. For information that must be included in your ruling request, see Section IV of Notice 97-19. If you receive this ruling, the expatriation tax provisions do not apply.
The expatriation tax applies to the 10-year period following the date of the expatriation action. It is figured in the same way as for those individuals expatriating after June 3, 2004, and before June 17, 2008. Individuals who renounced their US citizenship, or long-term residents that terminated their US residency, for tax purposes on or before June 3, 2004, must file an initial Form 8854, Initial and Annual Expatriation Information Statement. For more detailed information refer to Expatriation Tax in Publication 519, U.S. Tax Guide for Aliens.
Individuals who renounced their U.S. citizenship or terminated their long-term resident status for tax purposes on or before June 3, 2004, must file a Form 8854, Initial and Annual Expatriation Information Statement, and its Instructions, to comply with the notification requirements under IRC 877. For more detailed information refer to Expatriation Tax in Publication 519, U.S. Tax Guide for Aliens.
@Coleen, I shouldn’t worry about it. It’s not new info, the criteria for the 10 year rule has passed as we’re now in 2015 and you needed to ask for a exemption ruling within one year of your expatriation date which is also long gone. More here on it though:
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/06/19/if-your-expatriation-date-is-before-2004-the-rules-are-different/
Oh good, thank you! I was sure someone here would know what it meant. Thank God for this website!
My four children and I were dual citizens of Switzerland and the USA since I moved here 26 years ago and married their father. After a few years of debate and many more years of paying H&R Block to file tax returns, I finally took the plunge last summer when my Swiss bank (Postfinance) began harassing me about my citizenship as if I had been hiding it. I’m sure you all know how it goes. You receive a package of documents in the mail to fill out with all your U.S. citizenship and tax identification. The tone was not friendly and it was made clear that my accounts no longer would be private but instead reported to the IRS.
So in the autumn, after a few family discussions and a lot of consulting this Isaac Brock Society website, my youngest son (18) and I renounced our U.S. citizenship in Bern. The waiting room was full (about 20 people) and the weary receptionist asked if anyone present was NOT there to renounce their citizenship. No one answered her…
Four months later, my new year started with CLN. And after all those years of doubting whether or not to take the plunge and be “just Swiss” I felt such a sense of freedom and relief but also, believe it or not, I still feel American. What I mean to say is that no having a passport does not take away your childhood memories nor your American family over in the U.S. But I am also Swiss, because I have been here all my adult life, voted here (it is a direct democracy, far more democratic than the U.S.), worked here, raised my family here. I just wanted to share those emotions with anyone who wondered “how does it feel” to lose your American nationality. You know who you are. It’s not a piece of paper that defines you. Thanks again for all the helpful information and support.
@SurelyUJest
Thanks for telling us about your experience. I know precisely what you mean. Though some people, those who generally oppose our actions, are unlikely to grant us that.
When I picked up my CLN at the consulate 3 yrs ago, the cashier was a newly-arrived Yank. She said she didn’t know what was going on but there “sure were a lot of them going on.” (renunciations). I told her it was the saddest $450 I ever spent. She leaned over and whispered to me “As far as I’m concerned, you’ll always be an American in my book.” I suspect most homelanders would react in the same way, once given the information about how the government has treated us. Enjoy your freedom!
I have a question about relinquishment. I have lived in Germany for 24 years (married 22 years to a German citizen). After a long period of thinking about it, I finally took the step to naturalize as a German citizen (Feb. 2015). As a condition of actually obtaining German citizenship I agreed in writing to the German authorities to relinquish my US citizenship (the Germans for the most part do not allow dual citizenship). Unusually in my case I was allowed to first naturalize and then relinquish (most Americans get a letter of assurance and must then renounce and then are able to obtain citizenship). I e-mailed the consulate requesting an appointment to relinquish my US citizenship and two days later got a phone call (was pretty amazed at how quickly they got back to me). The consulate clerk (a German) was surprised that the Germans had let me naturalize first before giving up my US citizenship and told me that I am only the second person ever to request relinquishment instead of renouncing at the consulate. So my question: does it make sense in my personal statement to mention that I signed an affidavit stating that I would relinquish US citizenship as a condition of obtaining German citizenship or would this actually work against me (i.e., be seen as duress). In the affidavit it does say that I am doing this voluntarily so it might actually help. Thanks for reading my comment.
@Fledermaus
The fact that you’ve sworn allegiance to and naturalized in Germany with the intention of relinquishing your US citizenship should suffice as grounds for relinquishment, but it wouldn’t hurt to mention that you’ve documented that intention in your affidavit either. IMHO. (Please make sure you don’t do anything which would confirm your “US person” status in the mean time, e.g. don’t use your US passport for anything, don’t vote, etc. Maybe that’s obvious, just thought I’d mention it.)
I’m also surprised they let you naturalize before initiating the relinquishment process. I was able to naturalize before receiving my CLN, but I had already formally renounced (for the bargain price of $450) beforehand.
@ Fledermaus,
I think mentioning the affidavit you signed for the German govt, stating that you would relinquish US citizenship as a condition of obtaining German citizenship, is good because it indicates you were aware that you were relinquishing at the time you did it.
I take it you’re also mentioning your personal intention in so doing – eg, something to the effect of because your entire life has been taking place and will always take place in Germany, and you did not wish to have participation in or allegiance to more than one country, or whatever. That indicates that you would have relinquished your US citizenship even if Germany had not required it. Intention is required, and the presence of intention should preclude duress.
So, as I see it, you’re able to show that (1) it was your personal intention to relinquish to begin with and (2) it was very clear to you what you were doing because you signed the agreement-to-relinquish affidavit as part of the German citizenship process.
Thanks for the reply. Yes in my statement I will also mention my personal intention. I just wasn’t sure if the fact that I need to relinquish and that I agreed to this in writing would work for me or against me.
Thanks for you reply. I was also surprised that they let me naturalize first and then relinquish. I was told that is how they do it for American citizens. Maybe they are reacting to the increased fee for renouncing. I do have a question about not doing anything that would confirm my “US status”: What do I do about my 2014 income tax return and FBAR. I’m not sure this whole relinquishment process will be over before the deadline to file in June. On the other hand I don’t want to miss the deadline and be penalized.
@Fledermaus, file as normal if you’re up to date. It can take months for the CLN to be approved by Washington and until they do technically you’re still an American citizen. The embassy will probably expect you to be filing so it won’t been seen as affecting your status so long as there aren’t other things like renewing your American passport, voting, etc, in the mix as well.
@ Fledermaus,
Yes, I don’t see how it can hurt as long as it comes across that you signed it because you wanted to relinquish anyway, as opposed to a person who signed it reluctantly. (Hopefully, if anyone sees a negative possibility, they’ll post a comment for your consideration as well.)
Re tax. Because you relinquished in 2015, even though you’ll be filing 2014 tax forms after you’ve relinquished, this doesn’t negate or harm your relinquishment because filing 2014 taxes is an obligation arising from when you were a US citizen.
Thanks…I was worried about filing taxes.
@ Fledermaus
“Maybe they are reacting to the increased fee for renouncing.”
This is a possibility. According to a message thread on Toytown Germany, US citizens who earn less than the equivalent of $2,350 per month could obtain German citizenship without giving up their US citizenship since the renunciation fee could be considered a hardship. To avoid allowing dual citizenship to moderate income Americans, possibly the German bureaucracy has come up a new procedure so that US citizens can relinquish rather than renounce. This is speculation on my part but might be an explanation. An earlier post on the topic:
Innocente says
February 11, 2015 at 7:11 am
Germany does not normally allow those naturalizing to retain their old citizenship. There is, however, a hardship exception when the applicant’s country charges “unreasonable fees” to give up the old citizenship. According to a message board in Germany, “unreasonable fees” are defined as: 1) greater than Eur 1,279 AND 2) greater than the applicant’s gross income for one month ($2,350 = Eur 2,080). So, if an U.S. citizen applicant earns less than Eur 2,080 monthly, s/he would not have to give up U.S. citizenship when naturalizing under this hardship exception. Life is strange.
http://www.toytowngermany.com/lofi/index.php/t331751-90.html
Yes, I know about the hardship exception to dual citizenship in Germany and actually asked if it would apply to me. In the end I couldn’t be bothered to do all the paperwork involved as I needed to send in proof of both my and my husband’s monthly income and I though then I would be over the limit ( I earn under the limit 1, 279 Euros, but our combined income is more). From another American I heard she actually got it through as they only consider a percentage of the husband’s income. In the end I the authorities assured me I would first be naturalized which mean that I could then choose the relinquishment route rather than having to pay the renouncement fee. As I wanted to relinquish any way I chose this route. I believe as well that the Germans don’t want Americans finding a loop hole to become dual citizens.
Fledermaus. 2 small points. You don’t need an affidavit. Just fill in form DS 4079. Note that it is trick form because it was originally meant for those wanting to KEEP their US citizenship in spite of having done something naughty like getting a foreign passport. Now it is used for the opposite purpose.
Just answer yes to 8 and 8b(iii) and make your INTENT clear in questions 18 and 19.
You ceased to be an American on the day you became German. The IRS will tell you otherwise. To be neat and tidy, file for 2014 and for 3 months of 2015 by the deadlines. Form 8854 is also supposed to be filed by next years tax deadline.
Well done. You saved $2350. Please consider a donation to ADCS.
@Duke of Devon
Thanks for the advice. I will donate something as the site has been a wealth of information for me and when I finally get my CLN (crossing my fingers) I will tell my story as there are none about relinquishment in Germany. Thanks.
@Fledermaus
I have to admit the huge sense of relief I felt when I received my Canadian citizenship. I had the the clerk of the court witness a document I had prepared stating that I was becoming a Canadian Citizen with the intent of relinquishing my US citizenship. This was good enough for the US consulate. It was not about saving $450 but rather about paying that $450 to a nation that had forced me to relinquish a birthright.
In one sense I will always be American, in another I have turned my back on the president and members of Congress who forgot that, the very reason the United States came into being was to protest taxation without representation, and a myriad of other slights which are all replicated as part of FATCA.
Thank you so much to everyone who has shared their knowledge and experiences here. It’s reassuring to know others are going through similar experiences and to hear how they’ve found their ways.
I renounced just today and am so relieved to have it behind me. It cost me $2350 US but worth every penny.
Now I’m looking at the exit paperwork. I see that we are to value our assets. I’m not sure how to go about this. How have others valued their homes? My home is my largest asset and it has increased in value more than anything. I have a property tax assessment from my town. Would that be good enough? The instructions are not helpful.
I appreciate any advice.
@ Graham Vapors
Welcome to Brock. My husband used our property tax assessment. At least it’s a document you can keep on hand until the Statute of Limitations run out. I think most people just do the best they can with 8854 if they aren’t too near the $2M mark. Since your renunciation is in 2015, you have until 2016 to think and think and think about the final filing (2015 will be a partial year).
Graham Vapors,
I worked with a US law and accounting firm — and that is exactly what I used for my 8854 paperwork — my City of Calgary property tax assessment for the year in which I renounced.
Congratulations on your renunciation. You’re almost to the end of your long tunnel! Good luck with the rest of it.
Please consider a report here on your renunciation experience for others yet to learn from your and others’ experiences.
Also, it would be great if you will consider a donation to http://www.adcs-adsc.ca/ to help all others in your / our situations.
Are you up to date on your taxes? You need to have the last 5yrs plus current year files as well..
@Innocente
“According to a message thread on Toytown Germany, US citizens who earn less than the equivalent of $2,350 per month could obtain German citizenship without giving up their US citizenship since the renunciation fee could be considered a hardship. ”
Well, that’s quite a nice slap in the face to the “land of the free”, isn’t it?
@Fledermaus
Actually one would have grounds for relinquishment based on the application for German citizenship alone; the actual naturalization is even better, of course, but is not necessary to establish a case for relinquishment, since the act of applying for German citizenship (in which one affirms allegiance) is itself an expatriating act in the eyes of the US state dept. It appears that Germany is intentionally making a strong political statement by allowing US citizens to naturalize prior to relinquishment of US citizenship due to hardship. Bravo.
@notamused Yes I believe there is perhaps a policy change on the German side of things. As I stated already the clerk told my I am only the second person ever to request relinquishment and that other case is still pending according to him. I guess they better get used to more Americans relinquishing.