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Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 2

US RELINQUISHMENT RENUNCIATION.m2

Above is a link to data we are compiling on Relinquishments and Renunciations — a work in progress.

(We are starting Part 2 as Part 1 has now over 1,000 comments.)  Link to “Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 1”

This Relinquishment and Renunciation database corresponds with the Consulate Report Directory, which tracks individual experiences for each Consulate, along with a timeline chart.

Note: We are using numbers instead of blog names for this public posting so there will be no compromise of private information. Your facts will help give a snapshot of relinquishment and renunciation activity and where that occurs.

Please submit information in the comments below (or someone can contact you privately if you leave a message).

This database and the Consulate Report Directory have proven valuable resources for those new to the subject of relinquishment and renunciation.  They can see numbers for and read others’ experiences of relinquishment or renunciation at various US consulates throughout the world — as reported by participants of the Isaac Brock site.

Thanks for your addition to the Relinquishment and Renunciation database.  Your input will definitely help others.

1,470 thoughts on “Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 2”

  1. @maz57

    what was your do-it yourself’ process, do you not bother to file taxes etc anymore? can you let me know the details? I am canadian born and only US by virtue of my mother. i’ve filed fbars and taxes the last 4 years based on the gov’t scare tactics and have never lived or done anything in the US except visiting. I haven’t had a passport in well over 15 years (can’t even find my old one)

    any thoughts, i really cant afford the absurd $2300 they want now to say I am not american…

    thanks!

  2. @John, maz57’s situation wouldn’t apply to you because he/she naturalised as a Canadian citizen. You were born one so unless you can make a good case for having served in the Canadian military or Canadian government, relinquishment isn’t an option in your case. Even if you can, you’ve now filed US returns so that would make it even more difficult to argue a relinquishment case. Renunciation is really your own option. Whether you decide to wrap up the tax side as well is up to you.

  3. @ John
    Want to take the easiest route out? File for one more year (to satisfy form 8854) and use that year to save $200/month towards the $2350 ransom demand. Renounce. File all your exit papers and then you are FREE. After you’ve paid the ransom demand (time, worry, paperwork and money) and hold a CLN in your hand, they can’t hold you any longer. Finally be sure to change all the “locks” on your accounts (best to move them to a new bank) because thanks to all the information you’ve voluntarily given up on all that paperwork you filed, the USA has the keys to your accounts now.

  4. And lets not forget we all have the hope of tax reform. The Republicans will be in control as of 2015 and maybe- just maybe- things will change on that level- not for the worse but for the betterment of the situation for expats. Because on some level there is a growing understanding that tax evaders in New York cannot be compared with somebody who lives and works abroad. I don`t know what kind of change will be coming, but I have the feeling that some form of common sense is beginning to play a role over yonder. Inversions, the rising number of expatriations- they have been noticed and are being contemplated. Maybe something GOOD will happen for us all instead of things getting increasingly worse?

  5. @John. If I were you (which I’m not) based on the few facts you have described I would cease acting like an American immediately. Freaking out and filing US taxes and FBARs was a mistake which hopefully won’t come back to haunt you. Ceasing to do so will probably not cause a problem because the IRS is strained to the breaking point and most likely won’t even notice. Obtaining that US passport was also a mistake but there’s no problem if you choose not to renew it.

    You are a Canadian born in Canada. Not having a US birthplace is priceless so don’t squander it. Hopefully you didn’t reveal your US status when you opened bank accounts. If you did, change banks and open new accounts. If for some reason your new bank suspects you of being a US person you can show them your Canadian passport with Canadian birthplace and that should put an end to it right there.

    Likewise, if you travel to the US use only your Canadian passport. Let sleeping dogs lie and don’t ever try to find or renew that old US passport. Hopefully it is now long enough ago that it’s ancient history and your Canadian passport will be accepted without question.

    Your situation is quite different from mine. I was born in the US, moved to Canada as a young adult, and eventually became a Canadian citizen. You were born in Canada, have been a Canadian citizen from birth, and have lived here all your life. Based on the facts you described I see no reason you can’t continue to be a Canadian in Canada with no interference from the USA. (Except for the panic attack that is exactly what you have done most of your life.) Take advantage of all the resources here on the Isaac Brock website to educate yourself before any making any more rash moves. Consider donating to ADCS as well. Hope this helps; I am not a lawyer. Others here will likely offer differing opinions but they will all be in good faith. Consider all the angles before deciding on a course of action. Good luck.

  6. Just saying that my NZ experience, all the staff I dealt with at the time inside the embassy were definitely Americans and not Kiwis. That being said my experience was in 3 forms: email = very professional and pleasant (maybe that was the kiwis lol), phone calls def American guy = curt and awkwardly guilt trippy for what I was attempting to do and lastly in person visit = totally uncomfortable experience for me. This was like 14 months ago so I assume they have processed a lot more relinquishments and renunciations and are more in the groove by now. And as I said, maybe they were having a bad day, short staffed and stressed or something. Just the fact I could not afford to fly to Auckland, get a hotel room etc to make all this happen was stressful enough and then you catch attitude from them and fear kicks in and you think it’s going to fall through and be for nothing. When I pressed to NOT renounce and relinquish they were not happy and I thought right then I blew it and woud be going home empty handed. What a crap situation. So glad I got through it and have the CLN.

  7. I can imagine your relief. Good on you! I can only hope to be in the same boat in the foreseeable future, and will make sure I’m as business like and no nonsense (so as not to be intimidated at the interview!)

  8. In a previous post I made reference to something I read that seemed to say Section V of 8854 was required of everyone due to 6039G.

    Well, I found it. It’s at: http://hodgen.com/valuation-date-for-expatriates-balance-sheet/

    It’s not part of the actual article, but rather a response from Phil Hodgen to a question from “teenage entrepreneur”. Search on the page for “teenage entrepreneur” and you’ll see it.

    [BTW, teenage entrepreneur seems to have been 18 at the time and had a net worth in excess of $2 million. Wow.]

    teenage entrepreneur said (among other things):

    …
    The Form 8854 instructions for line 2 say “You can use the balance sheet in Part V (Schedule A) to arrive at your net worth.” But I will not be completing Part V since this is only required for covered expatriates.
    ….

    Phil Hodgen’s response (in its entirety):

    @teenage,

    I think filling in the balance sheet is unavoidable, even if one of the two exceptions (such as the “age 18″ exception) applies to make you not a covered expatriate. The reason I think it is required is because of Internal Revenue Code Section 6039G(b)(5), where Congress tells expatriates (of all flavors) to give income, asset, and liability details.

    Thus, while it is impossible for you to be a covered expatriate, the “we collect gratuitous information on you . . . because we can” Standard Operating Procedure (so beloved by the U.S. government) will stand.

    If you do not provide this information, then you have not fully complied with all of your obligations under Title 26 of the United States Code — the Internal Revenue Code. Section 6039G is in Title 26. As a result, you would fail the certification test (question 6 in Part IV, Section A of Form 8854).

    The exceptions to being a covered expatriate because of wealth do not exempt you from the certification test. You can be a dual citizen, fail the certification test, and thus become a covered expatriate. You can properly renounce citizenship at age 18 and fit yourself within the requirements of that exception. But if you fail the certification test, you will be a covered expatriate.

    Yes, it’s stupid. Yes, it achieves nothing of value for the U.S. government. Yes, it will cost you a lot of extra money to do the stupid stuff that the U.S. government requires from you. Just remember, though. You have one more Gate of Stupidity to pass through, then you’re done. The rest of us who remain U.S. taxpayers must marinate in this system forever. Lucky you. 🙂

    So PH seems to be saying that everyone must complete Part V.
    However, at least part of his rationale for this seems to rest with not running afoul of the certification test. And that’s where he loses me, since the certification test pertains to the previous 5 tax years and does not (AFAIK) include anything after that. So, again, I scratch my head.

  9. @maz57

    thanks! well no ive not used the passport in about 20 years and i would never even dream of trying to find it lol! never told my banks anything at all re Us as i don’t even think about it really 🙂 I only started doing this because my dad got us kids all nervous about it and paid for an accountant do do our first tax filing but the reason was for inheritance purposes to distance us from the tax grab the US likes to take on inheritance…sigh yea I should have just left it all alone in hindsight, I think at this point better just ask him to put up the money now to get it settled, seems like it might be better to wait a tad to see if any changes come about.

    if banks suspect something do they have to ask you before sending into to the US?

    thanks for all your comments and suggestions!

  10. @tdott,

    I posted a couple of times and I’ll say it again. If I ever have to fill out 8854 I would likely fill out Section V. Why? Because professionals who are used to dealing with the IRS seem to think it’s a good idea. It makes sense, because I don’t trust the IRS to understand the letter of their own laws. Assuming the IRS can’t do anything to me or my money, the info doesn’t do them any good so hopefully cannot hurt me. Might as well over-file just in case they think they must have it.

    However, it’s driving me crazy that people keep posting that the law says it must be filled out when not one quote has been posted to “correctly” back it up. I think it’s good practice to read and understand these things. I read INA 349 countless times for over a year before I inderstood the difference between 4(A) and 4(B), and it’s only 2 sentences. The instructions for Form 8854 are 10 pages long.

    Has anybody _read_ Internal Revenue Code Section 6039G(b)(5)???

    26 U.S. Code § 6039G – Information on individuals losing United States citizenship

    (a) In general,
    Notwithstanding any other provision of law, any individual to whom section 877 (b) or 877A applies for any taxable year shall provide a statement for such taxable year which includes the information described in subsection (b).
    (b) Information to be provided
    Information required under subsection (a) shall include—
    (1) the taxpayer’s TIN,
    (2) the mailing address of such individual’s principal foreign residence,
    (3) the foreign country in which such individual is residing,
    (4) the foreign country of which such individual is a citizen,
    (5) information detailing the income, assets, and liabilities of such individual
    (6) the number of days during any portion of which that the individual was physically present in the United States during the taxable year, and
    (7) such other information as the Secretary may prescribe.

    Look:

    any individual to whom section 877 (b) or 877A applies
    any individual to whom section 877 (b) or 877A applies
    any individual to whom section 877 (b) or 877A applies

    Sections 877/877a only apply to covered expats.

    It’s simple: If you fail the certification test, _then_ you are a covered expat, _then_ you must comply with 6039G. 6039G is required of covered expats.

    PH’s circular logic is just plain silly. To say that not complying with 6039G makes you a covered expat is daft. 6039G is not part of the tax filing obligations of the previous full 5 tax years, it is a requirement of being a covered expat which is determined _after_ your tax filing obligations end. If you’ve done your filing and are clear of the three 8854 tests that determine being a covered expat, then you are not a covered expat, and 877/877A do not apply to you, and 6039G does not apply to you. If you’re a covered expat, they need the Section V information so they can calculate how much of your money to confiscate.

  11. @tdott, Thank you for finding that posting of Phil Hodgen’s. What I do not understand about his answer is that Section 6039G clearly says in its (a) that this Section applies only to those to whom 877 (b) or 877A applies.

    So we need to we look at those section to see to whom they apply. We read in 877 (a)(2) that they apply to anyone who meets at least one of the three tests (A), (B) or (C). Let’s assume the millionaire teenager has been compliant for five years, so (C) is not a problem. However, because of her wealth she meets tests (A) and (B). But because she is under 18.5 she is excepted from application of (A) and (B) by 877A (g)(1)(B)(ii). Thus none of (A), (B) or (C) is germane for her and so she is *not* a covered expatriate, and therefore not subject to 877 (b) or 877A, and so not subject to Section 6039G, and indeed need not supply the information in Section 6039G (b). This makes sense, since the information in (b) is quite clearly the information that will be needed to follow through on the imposition of exit tax. One has the impression that whoever drafted Section 6039G was intending to express the requirement that people subject to exit tax should be required to provide the information needed to compute and impose it, but that those who are not subject to exit tax need not provide it (as predicated by (a) of this section).

    I have taken university level courses in logic, but I trust Phil Hodgen more. I would love to know how he reads these parts of Title 21 and comes to the conclusion that Section 6039G applies to everyone, including non-covered expatriates. To say that a non covered expatriate might turn herself into a covered expatriate by failing the certification test (C), by failing compliance with Title 26, because this includes 6039G …., this is too torturous an argument for me to understand – as yet.

    It sets my mind thinking about the town in which all men are clean-shaven and the barber shaves everyone who doesn’t shave himself, and no one else. Who shaves the barber?

    I have just read the post by @WhatAmI, who seems to agree the same logic I have just written. He or she makes the good point that it can do no harm to over-file, – and so we should not care -, excepting that teenage entrepreneur’s accountant might charge less if all the computations in Part V could be avoided. Indeed, if Part V can be ignored, then she might easily be able to complete Form 8854 without any professional help.

  13. Which is why I got a tax preparer to deal with it all, even though I only had FBARs to file. I wouldn’t have known where to start on getting out on the tax side if I’d tried to do it myself.

  14. My CLN arrived this morning. It was backdated to 1983 as I had requested. I cannot believe this is over at least for me. A huge thank you to Isaac Brock Society. Without the information and support from these boards I would have been lost. I will continue to share information from the website with my communities and sincerely wish every person here is set free.

  15. over the hedge,

    Sincere congratulations and thanks for another report of a successful claim to relinquishment by insisting that your file be forwarded to Washington, DC for determination — i.e., not the decision of the Vancouver US Consulate!

    To refresh the mind of all here, http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/consulate2/comment-page-30/#comment-2698610

    Over the hedge says
    August 21, 2014 at 10:45 pm

    Today I visited the consulate in Vancouver. One security check outdoors and a 2nd indoors. I was mindful to leave every pointy, electronic, hazardous, moist or otherwise dangerous item at home and arrived with only my documents and identification. I was ushered up a staircase through the metal detector and into the elevator. Once inside the consulate I was alone all the seats were empty, the consular informed me I was the only interview of the whole afternoon. The staff were very friendly and I suppose to their minds helpful. Both the clerk and the Consular encouraged me to renounce not relinquish as my relinquishment would be denied and I would have to come back later to renounce and then the fee would be going up to I think they said 2800.00 but it might be 2400.00 I stopped listening after they repeated no relinquishment one too many times. I insisted they forward my file to Washington.

  16. If they only do one appointment per day, no wonder they are booked up well into 2015! Sounds like the usual Vancouver obfuscation to me. (In the interest of fairness, though, they did offer you a “buy it now” limited time special on a renunciation!)

  18. Congratulations over the hedge! I look forward to the day. Your experience reinforces my belief that appointments are being rationed unnecessarily to reduce the number of relinquishments/renunciations per year. I’ve no doubt the number would be double for 2014 if so many of us weren’t being put off until 2015.

  21. Terrific news, Over the Hedge!

    What a great way to ring out the old year, too. You can start the new year with no US in it right from the get-go!

    Great that you stood your ground and insisted they forward the file. I’m very happy that you got your correctly-dated CLN and you can get on with (get back to) normal life.

    Thanks very much for keeping us apprised. This is useful, and encouraging, information for many. I’ll update the Consulate Report Directory and CLN tracking chart, due out later this week. I’ve updated the “Reports by persons who relinquished US citizenship upon taking government employment” pdf.

  22. I guess back date to 1983 removes you from the filing obligations for the 8854, etc? My CLN was back dated to 2008 but I am still expected to file previous years starting from the date I went to the embassy and signed forms which was nov. 2013. So for me, basically it doesn’t matter if I was back dated to 2008, I don’t file 5yrs back from 2008 I must file 5yrs back from nov. 2013. Which was a pain as I was actually current up to 2005. Anyway…

  23. @Over The Hedge
    Congratulations.
    Can you explain how you were able to relinquish rather than renounce? I may have missed your circumstances.
    I relinquished. It was backdated to 1993 when I became a Canadian citizen. I was born in the USA and came to Canada in 1969. I even filed my US tax returns, never owing anything. It was not complicated at that time and I made so little. I never thought the the US tax system was so unique, thinking this is what every country requires of those who leave “home”. I was shocked to find out in 2011 that it was citizen based taxation and the rest of the world was resident based.. I did not find out about FATCA until 2012. I was so petrified that my widow’s pension and late husband’s retirement investments would be taken away since I stopped filing US taxes after the year I became a Canadian citizen.

    The Isaac Brock Society, which I came upon in 2012 , became my God send. I knew through reading the site and talking to Brockers that I was eligible for Relinquishment. When I went in 2013 I could politely tell the US Counsel officers that I was not renouncing as they tried to get me to do. I waited 9 months until my precious CLN arrived..
    Over the Hedge,
    Welcome to the CLN club. I only wish my other fellow Brock friends who do not have one will eventually get theirs Hopefully the Charter Challenge in Canada will win. I have contributed to the cause and will continue to. There is a Feb 1st $ deadline to meet.

    A Happy New Year to everyone here. May 2015 find FATCA very terminally ill and out of our lives.

  25. @Over The Hedge

    Congratulations! You are free and no tax nonsense!! Thanks for standing your ground, It will help others be aware that they can do the same.

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