Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 2
US RELINQUISHMENT RENUNCIATION.m2
Above is a link to data we are compiling on Relinquishments and Renunciations — a work in progress.
(We are starting Part 2 as Part 1 has now over 1,000 comments.) Link to “Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 1”
This Relinquishment and Renunciation database corresponds with the Consulate Report Directory, which tracks individual experiences for each Consulate, along with a timeline chart.
Note: We are using numbers instead of blog names for this public posting so there will be no compromise of private information. Your facts will help give a snapshot of relinquishment and renunciation activity and where that occurs.
Please submit information in the comments below (or someone can contact you privately if you leave a message).
This database and the Consulate Report Directory have proven valuable resources for those new to the subject of relinquishment and renunciation. They can see numbers for and read others’ experiences of relinquishment or renunciation at various US consulates throughout the world — as reported by participants of the Isaac Brock site.
Thanks for your addition to the Relinquishment and Renunciation database. Your input will definitely help others.
@maz57 I see where you are coming from and don’t take this the wrong way, but it seems to me you are no longer a US citizen is only in your own mind. Legally the USA most certainly considers you a US citizen. You not having a CLN is all they need, and not filing returns + 8854 is another whole can of worms. You are more of a fugitive on the run than a former citizen in their eyes. At this point in time no expats have been violently punished for doing what you have done, but is that always going to be the case? What does the future hold? More efficient and deep learning computing systems will soon be able to track all expats down to their last phone txt messages, grocery store purchase, personal emails, etc. I know NZ and their “5 eyes network” are totally in bed with the USA. The threat of “terrorists” ensures all of our data will be completely open to the USA. All they have to do is send all those data points to new IRS systems or Dept. of State systems and you practically become a blip on a map for them to target. Then what? Well, I suspect there will be massive fines coming your way that you will laugh at and ignore, then documents will be issued to the nation where you reside stating you are a fugitive from the US Govt and are to be extradited and tried on dozens of counts of tax evasion. The nation where you reside will comply without hesitation due to various agreements made between them and the USA. I’m going to play their stupid little game because until then, they OWN me and whether I like it or not is moot. The US govt has stripped their citizens of free will and if you defy them you will eventually be punished, and if you think anyone will protect you then good luck. NZ has already sold out to the USA with 5 eyes, FATCA and more so I would expect them to extradite me without hesitation. When the USA says jump, my govt says “how high?”
@tdott,
You must mean Form Part I Line 4, not Line 6. The heading for Part I is “General Information”. Line 4 is a very general instruction saying 2014 relinquishers complete Parts I, IV and V. That means nothing more than “Don’t complete Part II or III”. This is explained in more detail in the very first section of the Instructions on Page 1: “Purpose fo Form”.
I read this form and its instructions countless times over 3 years before recently coming to my current interpretation. It took me that long. It was always contradictory and confusing. Now reading it “knowing the answer” going in, there is no contradiction or confusion at all. One page says complete Part IV, and when I look at Part IV I see I only do Section A and not Section B. I wouldn’t expect that to be explained in detail in Part I Line 4! At the time of filling in Part I, you haven’t even determined if you are a dual-citizen or covered expat, both of which affect the sections that ultimately get completed.
The most specific instructions are at the start of each given section, and Part V lists filers who are subject to sections 887 and 887a, IE covered expats. It refers to 6039G, which I’ve quoted above as applying to filers subject to 877/877a. It could use a few added words like some of the other sections have, but I wouldn’t put more meaning on the words that are absent than on the words that are present.
Seriously, try it. Pretend you agree with me and read it all again. You won’t find one contradictory statement. Keep in mind that until you get past Part IV, Section A, instructions about which parts to fill in are general because they don’t know yet if you are a covered expat (and of course it’s all written as if they assume you’re going to be ;-).
Once again, re 8854, tdott stands out as a trustworthy source of information:
Lastly, I specifically asked an accountant, who works with a cross-border tax lawyer, if Part V was required for non-covered expats, and he said yes. I’ll press him on it when the time comes for me to have to worry about it as he may have been giving an off-the-cuff opinion, but that’s what he said.
To confirm that this is what a longtime specialist accountant who is also a lawyer approved in review of my 8854 – covered or not, you do do all of part V.
(Escape is meant to be evermore painful. Think $2350. Think of the concept of diminishing “semi-good” so aptly oraculated by guru Phil.)
And once again, watch Duck of Devon emit a stream of contradictory back-steppings after broadsiding with the usual hakuna matata.
Far too many succumb far too fast to the great temptations:
• To shortchange due diligence
• To latch onto factoids that reinforce what would be nice if it were the case
• To attempt to retro-fabricate a serviceable citizenship intent
• To assume that IRS obscurity entitles willful interpretation
• To believe that FATCA will never attain effective reach
• To hang big fond hopes on a pricey long-term lawsuit
• To presume to “settle” for a spot of fudge that can only morph into corrosive uncertainty
A big Yo Ho Ho on Christmas Eve! Sauve qui peut!
@Pukekonz. No problem, I’m not the slightest bit offended. I believe legally (and by that I mean according to US law) I am no longer a US citizen. What the US government considers me to be (if they have considered me at all) is unknowable. Even if I were still a US citizen I would not have a filing obligation because I continue to fall below the filing threshold. Filing a US tax return or FBAR would, of course, be counter to my claim that I relinquished US citizenship. It is no crime to not file those things if one is not a US citizen and it’s no crime to not file if you fall below the filing threshold. Either way I’m good. So my only real problem is 8854.
The Canadian/US tax treaty specifically states that Canada will not collect a US tax claim if the taxpayer was a Canadian citizen at the time the liability arose. FBAR penalties are not taxes, are not covered by the treaty, and are therefore not collectable. The Canadian government doesn’t give a damn if a Canadian hasn’t file a piece of paper with the US government. A basic principal of extradition is that it must be a criminal offense in both countries and a tax dispute falls under civil law, not criminal law. Stated another way, Canada would not extradite a Canadian for not paying US taxes because not paying US taxes while a Canadian resident in Canada is not a crime in Canada. So while it is unfortunate that Canada signed that IGA nothing has changed re: collections and the tax treaty.
I agree that modern technology probably allows the possibility of monitoring my personal communications, but I can assure you they would get very bored in a hurry! The IRS is woefully understaffed, I’m a small fish, and I wouldn’t be worth the effort. By not applying for a CLN, State will not be ratting me out to the IRS.
I should add that I have archived the record of my correspondence with the US consulate in which I informed them of my relinquishment and requested an appointment for a CLN. Unlike Lois Lerner those emails are not going to get lost! They declined my request, saying they were way too busy. That’s not my problem, I’m not going to allow them to try to make it my problem, and I’m not going to wait forever to not be a US citizen. I should also add that I came to Canada as a Vietnam war resister and have been in way worse trouble with the US government than this present day imaginary tax dispute. Nothing bad happened to me then and I don’t believe anything bad will happen to me now.
Please don’t think that I am critical of your views and your choices. We all have to struggle to find our own way through this mess. There are many paths to freedom. When I read that 8854 form the latent refusnik in me resurfaced and I charted my course. They most certainly don’t own me. I sincerely hope we both emerge unscathed on the other side and I believe we eventually will. If and when I hear anything from the IRS Brockers will be the first to know.
@maz57 Sounds like you’ve got it covered and are at peace with the decisions which is great 🙂 Do you ever intend to set foot in the USA again? I wish I could say without doubt I never will, but I am sure when a parent or such passes away I’ll be expected to come over and lend a hand. I would likely take your position if I knew I’d never visit. Still, I’m hoping if I ever do have to visit I can do it remotely. I have seen some little robots gizmos that have Ipads on a pole and you can take control remotely and move around/converse with people and not have to be there.
8854, now becoming a distant memory (filed it last April). I had to go over it 5 times to make sure there were no mistakes, and some questions I had to rephrase by editing the PDF to make sure I knew what they were asking. The people who write IRS forms must be ex-lawyers who still have legal doublespeak. And I course I hear nothing after sending it courier to the international tax office in Philly. A true black hole. But some on Brock say if you hear nothing, that is a good news.
@ WhatAmI & tdott
Appreciate your discussion of 8854. I think I’ll just go ahead and complete Schedule A in Part V, since my only assets are about US$100K in cash and our condo here in Japan, which has decreased almost 50% in value since we bought it 30 years ago (never thought I’d see a silver lining in that).
But I have a question regarding Line 9 in Schedule B of Part V. I have only a few dollars in interest income from the US, no other US-source income, and no income at all outside the US except my earned income from work. So on Line 9, I guess I should enter my total earned income from work, even though it was not US taxable due to my filing a 2555 for the foreign earned income exclusion. Does that sound correct?
@maz57, like pukekonz I can see where you’re coming from, but without that vital piece of paper called a CLN you’re still considered to be a US citizen for tax purposes at least. From the 8854 instructions:
2. The date you furnished to the State Department a signed statement of your voluntary relinquishment of U.S. nationality confirming the performance of an expatriating act (provided that the voluntary relinquishment was later confirmed by the issuance of a certificate of loss of nationality).
Without the CLN confirmination to back up your claim the IRS still considers you US. Yes, you’re a minnow, but the IRS does seem to like going after them.
http://www.nestmann.com/why-the-irs-goes-after-the-minnows-and-ignores-the-whales#.VJu8ULhAY
Another thing to consider is whether your bank will accept your self-certification or will they require a CLN as proof? I know the IGA allows for other forms of self-certification, but it’s entirely up to the bank whether they’ll accept them or not. It may not happen in Canada, but here in Switzerland if you can’t produce a CLN you risk having your account/s frozen if you refuse to sign a W-9 form to allow the bank to pass your account info on to the IRS.
Adding to the 8854 form Part V debate I’ll just say that my tax preparer filled out columns a) and b) (cash in accounts) and c) (house/mortgage) and Schedule B with nothing but zeros and I’m not a covered expat.
@Medea. Nowhere in the email record of my correspondence does the Consulate dispute that I lost US citizenship. They chose to obfuscate by refusing to grant me a timely 10 minute appointment to record the facts and send the file on to D.C. The issuance of a CLN would have been the certain outcome of such an application. Instead of doing their job they decided they were “too busy” so after trying for a year I finally lost patience, gave up, and decided on unilateral action.
Because I was not successful in getting a CLN, there was no corresponding notice by State to the IRS. The IRS probably doesn’t know I lost US citizenship. Ironically, if the IRS doesn’t know I lost US citizenship, then logically how could I possibly be a “covered expatriate”. This may ultimately be advantageous to me as I now must be in some sort of twilight zone in the eyes of the IRS. In my case I am not a nail sticking up that needs to be pounded down.
That’s an interesting quote from the 8854 instructions. Do you see what’s going on here? Only the State Department can issue CLNs and without a CLN a person is a US taxpayer. The US government therefore has the power to keep one a US taxpayer forever, that’s their game, and I’m not about to play along.
As far as banking goes, it’s early days in terms of FATCA reporting. I believe I “FATCA proofed’ my accounts but you never know. It’s a bridge I’ll deal with if and when it becomes an issue and I’m betting it won’t. The worst that can happen is that the IRS will receive information it already has.
The US government is a dysfunctional bureaucratic nightmare and the IRS is a special subset of that nightmare. It will take them years to figure this all out and I will probably be dead before that happens if it ever happens at all. I’m not losing any sleep over it and it’s nice to finally move on with my life.
Merry Christmas to you all!
@Medea et al
There is nothing in the law to suggest that without a CLN one is considered to be a US citzen for tax purposes.
Neither the instructions for/nor the Form 8854 is the statute/law.
@maz57
there is NO requirement whatsoever for you to file 8854. This is from the 2014 instructions of 8854:
Expatriation tax provisions apply to U.S.
citizens who have relinquished their
citizenship and long-term residents who
have ended their residency
(expatriated). Form 8854 is used by
individuals who have expatriated on or
after June 4, 2004
IOW, no 8854 for anyone who relinqished on or before June 3, 2004.
So then theoretically if you have naturalized elsewhere prior to that date, could the assumption just be made that you no longer wanted citizenship (assuming you did nothing to indicate otherwise, such as vote in the US etc, since that time)…..? Or would the DS-4079 form still be a requirement to formalize it?
I think it’s unlikely in my case (as an accidental leaving prior to age 2), that they would likely ever catch up (though still worries me), but if they did, say through FATCA, I wonder if the argument that I always just assumed relinquishment of my US citizenship to be the case when I naturalized (prior to June 2004), would be enough to satisfy them and get them off my case…?
@Tricia. My date was Dec. 2012 so sadly I would fall under the latest expatriation tax provisions. (Not that I give a damn!)
But you are correct, not being a US citizen does not depend upon possessing a CLN. The majority of the people in the world do not have a CLN and they are most certainly not US citizens. It would be nice to have one just to tie up that loose end but there’s a limit to how much s–t I’m willing to eat.
Good point about the distinction between the form/instructions vs. the actual statute.
@Coleen,
No one knows what the reaction of the US gov would be to the explanation you offered. Of course, many people in your situation would take the position that they are not a US citizen, Person, etc. I guess everyone is waiting to see how FATCA reporting will play out. I imagine from your comments that you are a dual at birth but would have a US birthplace on your passport? If you avoid the US, one would think you would not encounter any difficulties. If you are in Canada and wanted to drive across, there is always the option of an enhanced driver’s license (at least for now).
@maz57
I guess I assumed your mentioning being here since draft dodger days meant you became a citizen then as well. Are you saying you became CDN in Dec 2012, or tried to relinquish officially in 2012???
I cannot imagine any reasonable excuse the consulate could have for not processing your request.
I hear you. I have complied as much as I am able to. No more regardless if an audit, etc. Enough is enough!
@Coleen
Not that I don’t wish you success in claiming relinquishment, but I fail to see how anyone who has applied for and received a US passport at least twice as an adult could be termed an “accidental American”. And I don’t quite see the logic in saying that you assumed you lost your US citizenship in 2004 and then applied for (or maybe renewed!) a US passport in 2004 and then renewed it in 2014!
Yes, for sure, that is my worry. However I have travelled very extensively (a dozen or more countries) but only ever on my NZ passport since 2004. I have made one trip in 20 years to the US for 8 days. That is the only action on my US passport/s. My husband and son were hassled on the one trip we made there, until we explained that they didn’t actually have passports, only I did, so I have only renewed passports since so that I could get through without any future drama and being told I was entering dishonestly on another nationality passport. I think in light of that I could be ok…. We will see, and I’ll be sure to keep the community posted….
@Coleen
Again, I don’t want to throw cold water on your chances, but to my mind, the fact that you made only one trip, but still renewed the passport, is even stronger evidence that you intended to keep your US citizenship, since you can’t claim that you had been hassled repeatedly to enter the US only on a US passport. Some of the Canadians who were traveling to the US on a regular basis can claim that they applied for a US passport under duress, especially if they had never had a US passport before. And even they have an uphill battle wit a relinquishment claim. In your case, you cannot claim that you thought you automatically lost US citizenship when you naturalized to NZ, since you knowingly renewed your passport.
And if I understand your timing, you renewed your passport twice (2004 and 2014) after your naturalization?
I wish you luck with it, but objectively speaking, I can’t see how a relinquishment claim will stand much of a chance.
My experience with them is they are ultra patriots and the mere fact you do not want to be an American is wildly offensive to them. When I went to my relinquishment they were dumbfounded, seemed perplexed, agitated and reluctant to comply. Initially they wanted to force me to renounce and pay $450, but I stood my ground and demanded a relinquishment (It’s what the booked me in for!), after they made calls I suspect a superior told them I was within my rights to relinquish. They were really pissy after that. Because they take such offense you feel quite subhuman in their eyes. They naturally want to punish you or anyone who dare give up their ‘Merican’ citizenship. What a traitor, what a treasonous act. CBT, FATCA, FBARs it’s all one big system to punish innocent people and make them pay for their ‘insolence’. (…you can probably tell I’m bitter).
@ pukekonz
Sorry to hear that you had a bad experience. I’m surprised that you came in contact with more than one American at the consulate in Aukland. Here in Osaka, with the exception of a consular officer for doing the final paperwork, it was also local staff, from security to the emails to preparation of the forms and everything else, and everything was rather cordial.
I had thought that most of the bad experiences were coming out of Canada, where the consulate staff probably feel they are being unfairly overloaded with relinquishment work. I would think Auckland would be a rather quiet consular post.
Maybe they were having a bad week or something. The person that seemed in control was pissy, short, copped an attitude. I was being as friendly as possible having paid for flights and hotel I did not want anything to go wrong. The interview guy thought I was completely out of my mind giving up the citizenship. He was a serious flag waver this guy, shaking his head, sighing over me doing what I was doing, etc. The whole scenario felt very uncomfortable.
@ pukekonz
Once again, I feel for your discomfort. There’s no reason why a relinquishment appointment should leave a bad taste in the mouth, and there’s no excuse for such unprofessionalism at the consulate. But it is almost certain that everyone you spoke with, except for the flag-waiving interviewer, was a kiwi and not an American.
It is the same with the Canadians who protest poor treatment at the US consulates in Canada. They seem to forget, or rather choose to overlook, that almost all of that poor treatment is at the hands of their fellow countrymen.
The “window dweller” I had to deal with at the Toronto consulate was a little rude. He kept insisting I provide my last US address. He seemed incapable of understanding that babies do not memorize their addresses. Despite explaining I had no idea, I was an infant, he asked me several times, was clearly annoyed with me, and made no effort to hide it. Given he had a strong American accent, I doubt he was 100% Canadian.
These last few comments describing shoddy treatment by US Consulate staff explain why I finally gave up on the process and went with a “do it yourself” relinquishment. Whether they are American or local is not relevant. Such conduct is unwarranted, unprofessional, unpleasant, and should not be happening. Screw them.
@Maz57,
“I will not subject my life to the whims of a foreign government.”
I assume the above sums things up nicely.
As a note, I recently learned from bits and bobs on IBS that because of circumstances that were very unique and changes in law in Canada that in fact I am Canadian!!
I have nothing against Canada and in fact had this come to a head decades ago, I would have moved due North!!
But the reality is that I have a EU Passport that is equal to Canada so I neither need nor want this “gift” from Canada.
Even though I can renounce it at no cost, I do not even want to go to the time and worry of renouncing it.
This experience with Canada can be applied to other nations as well.
Canada made me a Citizen against my will and desire, thanks but no thanks.
@Coleen
We have accounts of those who were prodded to get a US passport and used once after relinqishment date who still had a successful relinquishment.Try reading through the consulate visit reports but Attius would be one. The best thing is to prep yourself totally with responses to questions you can anticipate as to why the passport was renewed and go from there. Best to approach with expectation of a positive outcome as opposed to assuming the worst.
Thanks all (and TokyoRose) for the feedback. One needs to be realistic and aware of worst possible outcomes, and all information/experiences are gratefully received, (despite whether or not it’s what I want to hear!)
My experience with the Consulate staff here has always been rather curt. Not rude, but on the verge, and certainly disinterested at best.
re relinquishing, I can always just wait another 10 years for my passport to expire and let it all (hopefully) die a natural death, but I think at least by applying for the relinquishment, it clearly shows my intent, even if it is after the fact and even if they are not in agreement. Intent is not an easy thing for me to prove, but it’s equally hard for them to prove also…. The more I think about it, the less willing I am to file the invasive 8854 and any back returns. This just seems to me to be fully conceding I see myself as American, and liable to all this expensive unnecessary nonsense.