Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 2
US RELINQUISHMENT RENUNCIATION.m2
Above is a link to data we are compiling on Relinquishments and Renunciations — a work in progress.
(We are starting Part 2 as Part 1 has now over 1,000 comments.) Link to “Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 1”
This Relinquishment and Renunciation database corresponds with the Consulate Report Directory, which tracks individual experiences for each Consulate, along with a timeline chart.
Note: We are using numbers instead of blog names for this public posting so there will be no compromise of private information. Your facts will help give a snapshot of relinquishment and renunciation activity and where that occurs.
Please submit information in the comments below (or someone can contact you privately if you leave a message).
This database and the Consulate Report Directory have proven valuable resources for those new to the subject of relinquishment and renunciation. They can see numbers for and read others’ experiences of relinquishment or renunciation at various US consulates throughout the world — as reported by participants of the Isaac Brock site.
Thanks for your addition to the Relinquishment and Renunciation database. Your input will definitely help others.
@PierreD this is interesting. I have a 12yr old born in New Zealand. Am I going to have to have them do something at 18? My NZ born has never had US citizenship or US anything. They are 100% Kiwi. So, USA is claiming ownership of my kid and at 18 they will have to renounce? Insane. Can this be done via relinquishment instead? But how do they renounce or relinquish US citizenship when they are not even US citizens or in the US system?
Pukekonz.. This has been discussed at great length .. Many people here believe your 12 yr old is a US citizen as well as a Kiwi and will have to renounce when he’s 18.
An equal number believe that (s)he has the right to claim US citizenship if (s)he chooses to. But until (s)he does something like try to get a passport, the US has no claim on him or her. In the meantime he is Kiwi only. Choose whichever course of action which is best for him (her).
@pukekonz
I urge you to send a copy of the offensive Westpac FATCA letter to the Alliance for Defence of Canadian Sovereignty.
http://adcs-adsc.ca/ContactADCS.html
It might make a useful addition to the documents supporting the case. It demonstrates that the NZ IGA has resulted in an invasion of all Kiwi’s privacy.
Also urge all to lobby Glen Greenwald at “The Intercept” to cover the FATCA story and global invasion of banking privacy it entails – and also the ADCS suit, which is the ONLY statement of claim in the world against FATCA at this time.
This story is should be put on their radar.
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/
@George, do you think the master nationality rule etc would stand up in a court of law? Could all “accidental Americans” just use that as an affidavit type of thing and not bother with any if this as long as they not planning on going to the U.S.?
http://eudo-citizenship.eu/InternationalDB/docs/Convention%20on%20certain%20questions%20relating%20to%20the%20conflict%20of%20nationality%20laws%20FULL%20TEXT.pdf
Showing Country Signators: http://www.refworld.org/docid/3ae6b3b00.html
i.e., FOR THE DOMINION OF CANADA: The Honourable Philippe Roy, Envoy Extraordinary and Minister Plenipotentiary to the President of the French Republic
with note: Actions subsequent to the assumption of depositary functions by the Secretary-General of the United Nations
Denunciation – Canada – 15 May 1996
@Calgary411, so does that mean if you were born & living in Canada before 1996 that this could be used in a court of law? Could it be applied to your son?
Cheryl,
Thanks to all of the information George has provided here, I have this in ‘my file for all I say about my son’s situation’ and why I say he is only a Canadian. Besides, my son (and other sons and daughters like my son) does not have the ‘requisite mental capacity’ to go through all the hoops to verify his “supposed” gift of U.S. citizenship anymore than he has the ‘requisite mental capacity’ to determine that he would like to renounce a citizenship that he does not understand nor its consequences (and a parent, a guardian or a trustee does not have the right to act on his/her behalf, even with a court order) and to carry out that task without the influence of anyone else. My son was born in 1974, so well before the “denunciation” made by his country, Canada. I think it is well worth the argument. What is the U.S. argument against that — and what benefit does / would the U.S. have to continue to ENTRAP such persons in view of the “master nationality rule”? I’d like it to go before some kind of a jury!
@Calgary411, We can only hope all this eventually gets trashed. Your sons case is the most egregious I have heard. Often when I am feeling overwhelmed and sorry for myself, I think of your son to put things in perspective. My heart goes out to you.
Thanks for your thoughts for my son, Cheryl. Remember though, this has to affect many, many, many more than my son. It will also affect those with other ‘mental incapacities’ such as age-related dementia or Alzheimer’s Disease, as well as someone who has had a medical trauma because of an accident or a stroke, etc. My son is just how I can explain that fact.
As well, anyone who has a Canadian Registered Disability Savings Plan (RDSP) which received contributions from Canada’s government will have to pay U.S. taxes on that investment. Mr. and Mrs. Average Canadian Taxpayer thus pays into the U.S. IRS. Are they all OK with that? This is the way the Canadian RDSP is taxed by the US for US Persons in Canada (also applies to the Registered Education Savings Plan, RESP):
1. If the sponsor / Holder of an RDSP (or RESP for that matter) is a US person then (US person analysis of the beneficiary is irrelevant):
a. The income generated by the RDSP is taxed to the US person sponsor currently as it is earned
b. The grant is taxed to the US person sponsor when it is distributed to the beneficiary
c. US person sponsor must file 3520A annually
d. US person sponsor must file 3520 annually
2. If the sponsor / Holder of a RDSP (or RESP) is NOT a US person, AND the beneficiary is a US person then:
a. The income generated by the RDSP (RESP) is taxed to the US beneficiary currently as it is earned
b. The grant is taxed to the US person beneficiary when it is distributed
c. US person beneficiary must file 3520 annually (no 3520A)
Neither RDSPs nor RESPs are covered by the Canada / US Tax Treaty.
@TrueNorth, @maz57, @pukekonz, all
Firstly BIG thank you for your replies.
This is so so so stressful. As a father of three who is trying to provide a long term future for my family i am not a fan of spending tons of time and $$$ on 8854 and related docs esp. when at the end i wont likely owe anything OR not doing it and one day somehow being contacted. Bloody terrifying, horribly horrible experience…
Pukekonz:
http://www.westpac.co.nz/who-we-are/about-westpac-new-zealand/foreign-accounts-tax-compliance-act/
Interesting i see they even ask if you have a NZ parent, which technically means even those of us who have renounced or relinquished are meant to answer Yes to this. How have you answered?
It’s Unbelievable…
What a nightmare.
Has *anyone* received a penalty or contact for not filing 8854?
Thanks
@justme
Would you be compliant for the 5 years previous to renouncing? I ask because if not, then even filing 8854 won’t relieve you of any taxes, interest, or penalties associated with those unfiled years, as I understand it. Also, regardless of filing 8854, if you are not compliant, you would still be a covered expat, with all the negative connotations associated with that status.
The one thing that filing 8854 does get you, is that it logs you out of the US tax system; so until 8854 is filed, you are officially still a “US person” and still subject to US taxation.
FWIW, I don’t believe we’ve heard of anyone being contacted re 8854 (either not filing, or filing without being compliant). Whether that will change in the future (as did FBAR enforcement, overseas compliance enforcement, passport semi-enforcement) is anybody’s guess IMO.
To be more explicit than I was above, I don’t think it makes much sense to renounce and not file 8854. Without filing 8854, you are still subject to US taxation, which was probably the whole point of renouncing.
@Cheryl, “do you think the master nationality rule etc would stand up in a court of law? ”
First, I am not a lawyer………..need to make that disclaimer.
When you make a statement “stand up in a court of law” you have to step back and ask whose Court of Law? I state this as its a hole that Brockers sometimes fall into.
For instance the ADCS challenge is being made in a Canadian Court and that Court may strike down an IGA that a US Court does not strike down. Ergo, is the IGA legal or illegal? In the USA its legal but in Canada its illegal.
Let me give you an example on your question………
Under the Law of Poland, I am a Polish Citizen automatically and could apply for a Polish Passport immediately.
I do not live in Poland nor do I speak Polish.
Poland is a FOREIGN GOVERNMENT to me.
I posses another citizenship and carry that passport. I have no other valid passports.
The Master Nationality Rule in my opinion applies to the extent if a possible can rightfully answer the question “Are you a Polish Citizen?”
While Polish Law claims me as one of its own, I can and will always answer that question NO.
The Country I live in has signed the 1930’s treaty on nationality. I believe that I have a very strong case in not recognizing my Polishness.
However, if I was to go to Poland for any reason I fully realize that the Government of Poland could cause difficulties for me and in fact during the Cold War persons like myself were sometimes warned not to travel to Poland.
@tdott
Although many disagree, I agree with you that renouncing seems an all or nothing route, which includes filing.
I think some people consider (or have done already) renouncing without filing Form 8854 in order to get CLNs to show to their local banks. For some people, they may not be previously known to the US/IRS but after renouncing they are. That could be a net worsening of their situation. However, local banks are obliged to report their accounts if they refuse to cooperate with the US person questions or fail to produce a CLN or some unknown approved excuse, even if they close their accounts and walk. That also makes them known to the US.
There doesn’t seem to be a proven safe path between renouncing and filing on the one hand, and doing nothing and dealing only with an exempt credit union (and never travelling to the US again) on the other hand. Many people have renounced and not filed, but we won’t know if it’s safe until we know that it isn’t (by somebody getting contacted by the IRS). Sheesh, it’s as complicated as the arguments that try to prove or disprove the existence of God.
George,
my grandparents were born in Poland. Am I considered to be a Polish citizen?
@pukekonz, I will respectfully disagree with my right honourable friend the esteemed Duke of Devon.
Under US Law, your son is a US Citizen. He does not need to register or take any action to have said citizenship conferred unto him as its automatic.
Having said that, no one is likely to notice he is a US Citizen as he has no tell tale signs/indica. However, if anyone gets sight of his long form birth certificate he is cooked. I have personal knowledge of young people in the EU getting outed because a FI said a birth certificate could be used as a second piece of ID prior to age 20.
Regardless, there is a thin line between being noticed as being a citizen and being a citizen automatically.
At age 18 or later, if your son has an opportunity to relinquish that may be an excellent opportunity to be grabbed. Summer employment whilst at University working for the Government of New Zealand as a lifeguard on a beach could be ideal.
@justme you’re not alone! I’ve transitioned from feeling terrified to straight up bitter and violated. Well, in the end I cancelled my westpac card application. I am a customer of Kiwibank and ASB. So far it took 2 months for me to be contacted by Kiwibank’s FATCA person. I demanded to know if I am still listed as a “US Person” in their system even though I am not. They took the ‘cannot confirm or deny’ approach. Claiming at this point they are not at the stage of identifying individual accounts. I could not get a straight answer as to when that stage happens or what I’ll be viewed as when it does happen. My queries to ASB have gone unanswered. I’m still trying to get my final filings done.
@George, sounds like my child has been born into slavery. Pure insanity.
@Northernstar, you just passed hurdle number one!!!
na zdrowie 😉
@Northernstar, you now have another line of questioning to your MP in Canada.
When TD or MBO ask What is your Citizenship(s)? should you also list Polish even though you can not speak Polish, do not like borscht and have never set foot in Poland, should you declare Polish because the laws of poland say you are a Citizen?
@Pukonz, “sounds like my child has been born into slavery. Pure insanity.”
Words for you and your family to live by;
“I refuse to live my life subject to the whims of a Foreign Government.”
I saw that on IBS and made a screen saver out of it.
I refuse to live my life according to the whims of all Foreign Governments including Poland!!
I consider myself blessed being a Pole in that when I give that as the example, people consider all else rather ludicrous.
Someone else posted here at Brock a line which has become my motto in dealing with the IRS: “Don’t make your life absurd for the sake of an absurd government.”
(So many times, reading through yet another absurd, slavering-at-the-mouth IRS document about bloodthirsty fines, I have thought of calling the IRS and asking if I could talk to their parents. Too often it feels like you’re debating with an angry 8-year-old who is threatening to send the army after you.)
@George
Maybe the banks should ask us what countries consider us to be their citizen or taxpayer, just to cover all bases.
@Bubbles, in the EU they are asking just that!!!!! I have querried my MP how I should answer is I do have all kinds of multiple citizenship based on the foreign law of foreign governments that I do not recognize.