Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 2
US RELINQUISHMENT RENUNCIATION.m2
Above is a link to data we are compiling on Relinquishments and Renunciations — a work in progress.
(We are starting Part 2 as Part 1 has now over 1,000 comments.) Link to “Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 1”
This Relinquishment and Renunciation database corresponds with the Consulate Report Directory, which tracks individual experiences for each Consulate, along with a timeline chart.
Note: We are using numbers instead of blog names for this public posting so there will be no compromise of private information. Your facts will help give a snapshot of relinquishment and renunciation activity and where that occurs.
Please submit information in the comments below (or someone can contact you privately if you leave a message).
This database and the Consulate Report Directory have proven valuable resources for those new to the subject of relinquishment and renunciation. They can see numbers for and read others’ experiences of relinquishment or renunciation at various US consulates throughout the world — as reported by participants of the Isaac Brock site.
Thanks for your addition to the Relinquishment and Renunciation database. Your input will definitely help others.
@ murdo douglas
SOP varies from consulate to consulate, country to country. I can only tell you that at the US Consulate in Calgary they were gracious enough to give my husband an interim letter to present at the US border, essentially explaining why he no longer possessed a US passport. It was just what he needed while waiting for his CLN to arrive. He didn’t use it but it was nice to have it just in case there was an urgent need for him to go there. Others have received similar interim letters when they asked. Perhaps you could e-mail the Amsterdam consulate and request such a letter. This is the template of my husband’s interim letter:
1) Has anyone NOT filled in the 8854 (and the 6 years of tax returns) (after renouncing) – due to it being a MASSIVE MASSIVE hassle – especially for people with complicated taxes (yet who know that they do not owe anything)? (i’ve never lived/worked in the US, no assets there, etc. always paid taxes in higher tax countries).
2) Has anyone been contacted by IRS to fill in the 8854?
Thanks
justme I can’t answer but am trying my damnedest to get all this crap filed. I am likely way overdue at this point in filing the 8854 which puts me as a covered expat, but since I have no assets it is not overly worrying me. All I can do is the best I can with the lack of funds to hire someone to sort it out. If they fine me or whatever, there’s nothing I can do to pay such fines. I’m not sure what will happen long term but I do have my CLN at least. I can’t imagine they would put their resources to people like me who are small and broke fish but who knows.
pukeknoz,
The situation that you’re put into will be that of so many — without the LUXURY of the necessary funds to hire someone to sort it all out (like my “luxury” I had of going into my retirement savings to pay $42,000 in fees for US tax lawyers, accountants and immigration/nationality lawyer in Washington, DC — and, of course, no resolution at all for my family with my son who is ENTRAPPED into US-defined US citizenship though born in Canada and never lived in the US a day in his life) and without the funds to pay whatever penalties might result).
You’re absolutely right — who really knows? Some here will try to give you comfort in saying they are not looking for folks like you and so many others so you / we will be safe (I hope that is true, but I don’t know it is true). It tears at me so that that response has to be “our hope”, that we have to live our lives with that uncertainty, that we are being criminalized for our “ignorance” of US citizenship taxation law. It is immoral, obscene, doesn’t make a lick of sense and is not AT ALL just. As I’ve said, I don’t want a work-around for my family’s case, I want something that makes absolute sense.
That is why I will continue to support Alliance for the Defence of Canadian Sovereignty, http://www.adcs-adsc.ca/, as I want a level ground of justice for every one of us. Will the U.S. ever come to its senses and change to RBT as the rest of the world? I have no idea and don’t have a lot of years left to know in my heart that those like my son, like you, like Gwen and Ginny will be protected from the insanity of US citizenship-based taxation and the IGAs that our countries have signed with the US to override our lawful rights in the countries we have chosen to live in and usually to have become citizens of.
I know regarding compliance, everyone needs to decide their own level of comfort with risk, consequences, etc., and that here on Isaac Brock we have a broad range of opinion from full-bore Streamlined to just ignoring the demands of this foreign government, but I’d like to know why some folks felt it necessary to spend a lot of money on compliance when they plan to expatriate.
That’s not a criticism: I’m wondering if I’m missing something. I’ve assembled my own tax forms for filing my 5 years of past returns and my 6 years of FBARs, and am submitting them on my own (following the incredibly helpful guidance of many here, as well as John Richardson and Phil Hodges). My financial situation is admittedly very simple. Now, when I renounce, I will be able to file 8854 in good faith, being fully compliant to the best of my ability.
May I have missed some ridiculous form? Yes, in the midst of the IRS labyrinth. But I’ve put in a good faith effort, which is all that my own (Canadian) government requires of me. And that’s all that I’m willing to give this foreign government.
Worst case? I supposed I could end up a covered expatriate, which would be annoying but not, I think, terrible. I would just stay out of the US, which is tempting just out of sheer pique anyway. My only continuing connection with the US is that my father lives there (and is now a naturalized citizen), and that I sometimes travel for work (but could probably avoid that if necessary.) But I would love to see Zion National Park someday.
So, have I missed something terrible? Any ideas? (BTW: I continue to be so thankful for Isaac Brock, and I love the work we can do together both through ADCS as well as helping the poor souls who are swept up into this hunt for U. S. citizens.)
I would think that getting professional help (and thus spending a lot of money) is dependent on:
1) Amount of assets – the more you have, the more inviting a target you are. So, getting professional help to (hopefully!) increase your defence of said assets may make sense.
2) Exposure to penalties – if you have a significant amount of exposure via RESP/TFSA/RDSP (“foreign” trusts), mutual funds (PFICs), FBARs, RRSP elections, etc, then it may make sense to get help. This is also an argument for going the Streamlined route which is supposed to waive penalties.
3) Exposure to a significant tax hit if deemed covered and thus liable for the exit tax. The exit tax would be devastating to anyone with a sizable RRSP and/or pension built up. Thus, employing professional help to make 110% sure that you’re not covered may make sense.
4) Desire to get the USG out of your life once and for all and move on. The more accurate your paperwork, the more likely that you won’t be bothered before the SOL runs out (or at least, so one would think).
5) Desire/need to be able to travel to the US without fear of reprisal.
6) Ability to pay for help.
That’s what comes to my mind when thinking about it. Of course, YMMV.
I do agree that if your assets, income and tax situation are not noteworthy, then the DIY route (Q.D. or Streamlined) may be the better (and cheaper!) way to go. As noted by OP, one’s personal comfort level is a major consideration.
tdott,
and dependent upon 7) Your own level of financial literacy / ability to understand, complete correctly and file yourself all of the compliance paperwork.
My reason was that I was at the zero ability level to understand and complete, with my added low risk tolerance. I also don’t want to have to hide and look over my shoulder for the rest of my life, thinking I’m a criminal. As well, I want to speak for those families like mine, with a family member that has a development disability, a Canadian Registered Disability Savings Plan (RDSP) and other provincial disability benefits for which tax is payable to the U.S. (I’ve given the US $3,661 in taxes due on behalf of the RDSP I hold for my son). Some persons / families don’t have a voice. I also speak for others so ENTRAPPED by U.S. Citizenship-Based Taxation and their being defined by the U.S. as a U.S. citizen — those who might have the misfortune of age-related dementia or a brain injury from stroke or accident, etc., rendering them without ‘requisite mental capacity’ to be able to renounce with the very persons who are to look after their well-being (parents, guardians, trustees) not having the right to renounce on their behalf, even with a court order.
With RBT, we wouldn’t be talking about this. I don’t see anything but litigation that might stop the absurd and immoral insanity of all we face.
tdott and OddlyNamed,
and dependent upon 7) Your own level of financial literacy / ability to understand, complete correctly and file yourself all of the compliance paperwork.
My reason was that I was at the zero ability level to understand and complete, with my added low risk tolerance. I also don’t want to have to hide and look over my shoulder for the rest of my life, thinking I’m a criminal. As well, I want to speak for those families like mine, with a family member that has a development disability, a Canadian Registered Disability Savings Plan (RDSP) and other provincial disability benefits for which tax is payable to the U.S. (I’ve given the US $3,661 in taxes due on behalf of the RDSP I hold for my son). Some persons / families don’t have a voice. I also speak for others so ENTRAPPED by U.S. Citizenship-Based Taxation and their being defined by the U.S. as a U.S. citizen — those who might have the misfortune of age-related dementia or a brain injury from stroke or accident, etc., rendering them without ‘requisite mental capacity’ to be able to renounce with the very persons who are to look after their well-being (parents, guardians, trustees) not having the right to renounce on their behalf, even with a court order.
With RBT, we wouldn’t be talking about this. I don’t see anything but litigation that might stop the absurd and immoral insanity of all we face.
@Calgary411,
Yes, especially in your circumstances. Yours is the most egregiously unfair example I know of here on Isaac Brock, and the response of our own government to the situation with your son is awful and vastly disappointing. The fact that you end up paying money from your son’s RDSP to a foreign government is so irrational and aggravating!
OddlyNamed,
It’s unfair for all of us.
I paid $3,661 to the U.S. out of my savings (i.e. my U.S. tax filings) — payable because of the RDSP I am the Holder of on behalf of my son. Nothing has been taken from my son’s RDSP or anything taxed from his provincial monthly Assured Income for Severely Handicapped (AISH) — YET (he does not have a SSN and has not filed OR I haven’t filed on his behalf as I consider him only a Canadian who would have no more ‘requisite mental capacity’ to do all of that than he would to renounce a US citizenship he was gifted by the U.S. (instead of a claim to such). I guess that would be when the bank notifies the CRA to in turn notify the IRS and my son will one way or another be deprived of the savings for him in a Canadian Registered Disability Savings Plan — like ANY OTHER Canadian with a disability is allowed. It will be a discrimination upon a discrimination for a person born and raised in Canada.
in the case of “Accidental Americans” they are “US-defined” dual citizens, having had no choice (or claim to that citizenship) as adults (and with “requisite mental capacity”). They had no choice where or to whom they were born – they returned to their and their parents’ own country with their Canadian parents as infants or children.
For U.S. citizenship to be just for these U.S.-defined “dual citizens”, they should have had a CLAIM (and lapse of that possibility if not claimed), especially that the U.S. practices citizenship-based taxation and these persons had no control of the CBT consequences of their U.S.-defined U.S. citizenship in their own country (Canada) that practices residence-based taxation.
The same unfair consequence is true for children born to U.S. parent(s) in Canada, their birth never having been registered with the U.S.; they never having lived in the U.S.; they never having had any benefit from the U.S. – only the consequence of, again, U.S.-defined U.S. citizenship in their own country that practices residence-based taxation.
With the consequence of U.S. citizenship-based taxation, it should only have been a CLAIM to U.S. citizenship or lapse of that if not claimed. If the U.S. practiced residence-based taxation as of the rest of the world (save Eritrea), these persons would not have these unjust consequences of citizenship bestowed upon them without their choice, without their consent, without their claim to such, given the facts.
Very valid point (#7), calgary411. Despite how much they may want to become compliant, some people are just not able to navigate this crap on their own. And we know that they can’t expect much, if any, real help from the IRS on this (“what’s a R-E-S-P?”).
@ tdott
… “what’s a R-E-S-P?”
Well I know one thing, from the IRS point of view — it does not stand for R-E-S-P-E-C-T. Tina Turner probably clued into that.
@Tdott and @Oddly Named, I made a long post in the thread concerning Tricia’s recent outstanding interview. I don’t have a high risk tolerance so ended up paying over $25,000 in accounting and advisor fees to amend several years and get into compliance. But if I hadn’t been able to find any affordable help, I would have probably just self-filed using software and hoped for the best. After all, I could have legitimately explained, if pressed, that I had done everything to the best of my ability as I understood the law.
Publication 54 for Expats doesn’t to my knowledge make any mention of obscure forms such as for PFIC or foreign trusts, for example; if one were well under the two million threshold, I’d like to think that the IRS wouldn’t have bothered someone expatriation and filing 8854 if they had honestly declared all their accounts on FBAR and 8938, and honestly declared all their income and capital gains.
But it occurs to me that our having chosen to give up our citizenship of the supposedly most coveted nation in the world could be an affront to many congressmen and politicians who will want to punish us somehow. So I am not complacent. I am aware that this could come back to haunt many people if the US government wanted to be particularly vindictive; if nothing else, we could make a convenient scapegoat.
@Calgary411, “The same unfair consequence is true for children born to U.S. parent(s) in Canada, their birth never having been registered with the U.S.;”
Over the last few days I had another epiphany on this subject explaining things to others on IBS.
One of the problems is that the US does NOT have registration. When you go to a Consulate for a child you are NOT registering that child rather you are obtaining a Consulate Report of Birth Abroad, which is nothing more than a translated local birth certificate.
In countries that practice Registration, citizenship does not take effect until the registration occurs. Think Irish registration if you have an Irish grandparent.
In the US the law automatically and directly conveys the citizenship with no required further actions!!
@monalisa, “But it occurs to me that our having chosen to give up our citizenship of the supposedly most coveted nation in the world could be an affront to many congressmen and politicians who will want to punish us somehow. ”
I relinquished pre-FATCA and was punished because it was an affront what I had done. At the time I had legal bills in the area you had and I thought it was shocking to have to have legal representation for an act protected under law, a human right.
I needed legal representation because of the tidal wave coming over me.
In regards to compliance there is a wide opinion because of wide circumstance.
I would guess a typical Brocker is to use a US Centric term, middle class economically. Not poor but not rich.
Everything you have financially came honestly and by sweat. You have a house and a local tax advantaged retirement plan and maybe six months income in the bank. Middle aged………………………
You are savy enough to calculate the worst case penalties of compliance and frankly you are wiped out and more…… So you know if everything goes south, you are wiped away……..
You calculate the better case penalties like OVDI and see that your already content but frugal retirement means working twenty years into retirement.
ALL to benefit a Foreign Government………………………..
So you look at simplified but the cost of getting tossed out of simplified means the middle class expat is getting wiped out financially.
If you are rich and lets call that $2 million US, you can enter OVDI, pay a large cost and you remain OK.
If you are poor, there is no cost………..
But if you have a couple self directed pension accounts in mutual funds…..worth $200,000 US. plus three or four bank accounts at $10,000 each…….compliance can mean handing 100% of it to a foreign government.
I think what we will see soon are 3rd party IRS collection agencies. IRS will give them access to “big data” and say, “whatever you can get from these traitors in fines you’ll earn a 20% take”. Then it’ll be 100’s of these agencies spending all day long shooting fish in a barrel and raking it in. We’ll of course be outraged but no one will care, we deserve to be punished for our insolence.
@George, exactly. Hopefully what you describe is a worst case scenario though. Pwople won’t probably start hearing back from the IRS regarding FATCA until at least 2016 or 2017 though. And at least in the early years, I suspect that they’ll focus on whales.
It’s the banks and compliance condors who will probably present a more immediate cost and threat. The IRS could find it more cost effective to hit foreign financial institutions with FATCA withholding if found to be non-compliant; these banks could, in turn, fine or freeze any suspected US person’s accounts. The unfortunate person would probably have to spend high fees to accountants and attorneys to clear up their mess sufficiently to satisfy their bank.
One thing that just occurred to me: are former citizens offered any constitutional protections from cruel and excessive punishment or only current US citizens? Does the Constitution offer any protection outside of US borders or only within the US itself??
That is what I’ve been told regarding my Canadian-born to US parents children, George. Couple that with with U.S. citizenship-based taxation and IGAs implementing FATCA in the countries in which we choose to live = evil and betrayal at its finest.
Hi guys fyi.. I recently applied for a credit card at a NZ Westpac bank. I have NEVER banked with westpac and they would have no idea I was once a US person. Yet, in the mail I got this bizarre letter from “FATCA Operations”, the letter is from Westpac. It is 3 pages of information asking me to sign that I am not a US citizen. It also contains a general statement in fine print that basically says they can turn over anyone in NZ’s bank details to the US:
“Westpac and its related companies may obtain, use and/or disclose information held about me/us to enable Westpac and it’s related companies to comply with any laws, rules or regulations in New Zealand or any other country including any laws, rules or regulations reasonably expected to be implemented (including to enable the government of New Zealand to comply with any agreement between it and any other country).”
So, by signing that I am not a US person I am also signing them over access to give my NZ accounts over to “any other country”. You can’t just sign that you are not a US person as the signing also means you sign their data access agreement.
This blows my mind that everyone in NZ will be getting these forms which essentially no longer means they are NZ banks, they are NZ/American banks. Absolutely astonishing.
@Calgary411, my children because of my personal timeline no longer remember the USA. Its more of a distant dream to them at this point in their lives……
Your desired outcome for your son is the same outcome I want for my own children. It is absurd to think that they would have to pay thousands and thousands of dollars to get rid of something that they received by misfortune of birth.
My own children at 18 would have received nothing from the US and I mean nothing. There is no debt to pay.
I know that remembering your son sharpens the thinking process and the solution that solves his problems will also help my children and countless others.
The solution for your son requires an extensive concentration to detail and should that solution be found, countless others will be freed in the process because the solution for him when found will be rock solid for others.
Thanks for your thoughts on this, George.
Not one parent would have knowingly brought this upon their children. At such a joyous time as their births, we had no idea of the entrapment our children would face years and decades later, some punished for the accidents of their birth circumstances with more layers than others.
No ‘probable outcome’ we console ourselves with will lessen the injustice or make it go away. Litigation and human rights complaints are our hope for solutions. We must continue to strongly support these efforts for ourselves and to remedy what we’ve passed on to those we love the most. We who chose to leave the U.S., those born in the U.S. but returned with their parents to their home countries as infants or children and many who may have never lived a day in the U.S. are victims of U.S. citizenship-based taxation law and its inconceivable / incomparable consequences.
@justme, I have not filed the 8854, and have not been contacted.
@Justme, @TrueNorth. I took one look at Form 8854 and swore to myself I would never file one. It’s none of their damn business and I’m not about to give them a shopping list or money. If they want to come after me they are going to have to do the detective work themselves.
That was two years ago and so far not a word from the IRS. 8854 or no 8854, there will never be finality so why bother, my $.02.
As I`ve said before, any questions from my homelander relatives as to what to give my younger teens for Christmas will be answered with something to the effect of “please donate to an account (not in my name) funds so that my Canadian born but US tainted children can afford to renounce their unfortunate US status upon their 18th birthdays, along with an explanation about the huge increase in consular fees that occurred in September.