Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 2
US RELINQUISHMENT RENUNCIATION.m2
Above is a link to data we are compiling on Relinquishments and Renunciations — a work in progress.
(We are starting Part 2 as Part 1 has now over 1,000 comments.) Link to “Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 1”
This Relinquishment and Renunciation database corresponds with the Consulate Report Directory, which tracks individual experiences for each Consulate, along with a timeline chart.
Note: We are using numbers instead of blog names for this public posting so there will be no compromise of private information. Your facts will help give a snapshot of relinquishment and renunciation activity and where that occurs.
Please submit information in the comments below (or someone can contact you privately if you leave a message).
This database and the Consulate Report Directory have proven valuable resources for those new to the subject of relinquishment and renunciation. They can see numbers for and read others’ experiences of relinquishment or renunciation at various US consulates throughout the world — as reported by participants of the Isaac Brock site.
Thanks for your addition to the Relinquishment and Renunciation database. Your input will definitely help others.
@Duke, I hear what you are saying but I think this is a pre-FATCA mentality. I’m sure the IRS will be able to determine which Americans overseas own overseas companies. Some simple crosschecking would show me listed as a company owner and then the cascade of ‘where are his 5471s’ would begin. Maybe not but not sure I would want to risk that, even if it’s tiny. Big Data has arrived 🙁
@ pukekonz
I can understand your plight and I’m so sorry I don’t have a solution. Now and then in the past 20 years we toyed with the idea of starting a small business in Canada but my husband always pushed the idea aside whenever he thought about having to pay SS tax and having to figure out the IRS paperwork, on top of learning about the CRA paperwork. Thank goodness we didn’t go there. My husband would not even do contract work, always insisting on a regular salary from his employers (no SS tax due, according to the CND-US tax treaty).
Can pls someone tell me if the renunciation request be denied for some reason?
let say , for example, if one owes child support or have a pending warrant, can they denied the request
even after you pay $2,350? or can they come back and say to pay what you owe and then approve
the request?
robin, I found this on the State Dept website:
7 FAM 1294.2 Fugitives from Justice
(CT:CON-285; 03-06-2009)
a. Persons facing criminal charges in the United States or elsewhere may seek to renounce.
b. They may express a reluctance to come to post for fear of being apprehended by authorities and may request to be permitted to renounce at another location.
c. You immediately must alert CA/OCS, CA/PPT/L/LE, the RSO and L/LEI to any case in which CLASS or other information received by you indicates the potential renunciant is or may be a fugitive from justice. You must report immediately any case of a US citizen who is the subject of an extradition or deportation request by the United States who inquires about renunciation of citizenship to CA/OCS and L/LEI. (See7 FAM 1600, Extradition, and 7 FAM 190, Deserters, Stragglers and Fugitives.)
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/120538.pdf
Whether the renunciation would be denied I really don’t know. Whatever happens, both the child support payments and the warrants would still be outstanding and would need to be resolved.
This showed up today via twitter.
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B7VqDyDIAgW2YTQyQmZ3QjZyT2s/edit?pli=1
http://blogs.angloinfo.com/us-tax/2014/10/12/tax-court-affirms-informal-relinquishment-of-green-card-not-enough/
The Department of Homeland Security has provided statistics pursuant to a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request regarding the number of green cards surrendered each year since 2000 as evidenced by submissions of Form I-407 (discussed below). I provide here the numbers of green card relinquishments since 2010, when FATCA was enacted:
2010: 19,545
2011: 17,267
2012: 17,775
2013: 11,185 (queried on June 20,2013)
At first glance, it shows the opposite trend. However, the 2013 data is only for half (or less) of the year.
I believe it shows that the Federal Register is incorrect, as it is meant to reflect loss of greencard (as explained in the wikipedia article)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quarterly_Publication_of_Individuals_Who_Have_Chosen_to_Expatriate
@Calgary411:
One way to expatriate is to make an oath to a foreign state in connection with a government job. I don’t know just how disabled your son is, but a sympathetic MP or local politician could, in theory, offer a job for one day answering the telephones or as a Walmart-like people greeter at the door. Then your son could apply for a CLN and not a relinquishment, where the relinquishment would have a greater burden of evidence.
Thanks, Tom Alciere.
To make an oath to a foreign state (his own country!) in connection with a government job, I presume, would also have to have voluntariness and requisite mental competency to be able to take an oath of allegiance. Also must not be under the influence of others. This also needs to happen for any others like my son — anyone in Canada with some kind of mental incapacity for this is NOT just about my son but for any such son or any such daughter of US citizen(s) in Canada (or indeed in any other country outside the USA).
I, myself, know of others in this same situation. There will be many such instances. I don’t want a work-around for my son / for my family.
Making an oath to a foreign country to get a job only counts as an expatriating act if the person doesn’t already have the citizenship of that foreign country.
@Calgary411:
I didn’t catch that part, “would-be renunciant or person signing a statement of voluntary relinquishment” I thought it was only renunciants to whom that applied. Would the applicant have less exposure to the consular staff to the point that they might be unaware of the reduced ability?
I know the process I went through for my expatriation. I know my son would not be able to do this VOLUNTARILY and by himself. No, the person would have no less exposure to the consular staff, renunciation vs claim of relinquishment by taking a government oath of office. In fact, he would likely have closer scrutiny. My son could NOT do this by himself (or even to think about it by himself – with no influence from anyone!) and I will not subject him to such an experience either at a US Consulate or crossing the US border (to ever again visit any relative in the US). And, again, it is about every such person, not just my son. It has to be something that makes common and just sense — not a work-around for one situation.
Bingo, WhatAmI. That went right over my head. Of course!
I will continue to contend that my son is not a US citizen, never registered with the US, never lived in the US, never had any benefit from the US — only from Canada, the country of his birth! Since he would not have the requisite mental capacity to renounce his supposed US citizenship, neither does he have the requisite mental capacity to think of and go through the process of registering himself with the US, being able to get a US social security number, etc. (all with no influence or help from any other person, like me) in order to be able to renounce — which we are told he cannot do since he does not have the requisite mental capacity and a parent, a guardian or a trustee does not have the right to renounce on such a person’s behalf. We would just be chasing our tail, going around in circles. Absurd — Keystone Kops absurd!
@calgary411,
Yes, I thought your son is a Canadian citizen, so this whole discussion is moot. However, we do apprectiate people like Tom being dedicated and helpful with trying desperately to come up with ideas! It’s also useful for lurkers reading this now or later.
Absolutely, WhatAmI — born in and raised in Calgary! I know that I perceive that everyone here knows my family’s story and must be so tired of my repeating it. But, of course, we have new people coming here all the time who might be amazed at such entrapment of my son and others like him into a US citizenship that was an unwanted, unasked for “gift”. Thanks so much for reminding me of that!!!
And, of course, they might even be interested in the House of Commons Conservative MP mocking of my son’s case: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANqVaEpRi_4 that highlights the entrapment — and the non-caring of any Conservative MP. Calgary has only Conservative MPs so no government representation!
@WhatAmI, “Making an oath to a foreign country to get a job only counts as an expatriating act if the person doesn’t already have the citizenship of that foreign country.”
You are technically correct for a 4(B) relinquishment, but a 4(A) relinquishment simply requires the acceptance of employment without an Oath if you already have the nationality.
Many accidentals here at IBS have used rather low level Provincial employment to document a relinquishment. In Europe I have personal knowledge of persons serving in what is a Village Council as a relinquishing act.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1481
(4) (A) accepting, serving in, or performing the duties of any office, post, or employment under the government of a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after attaining the age of eighteen years if he has or acquires the nationality of such foreign state;
@Tom Alciere, I like your idea and think its a good one. Let me add some clarity to take out the rough edges.
I think its a brilliant idea for someone wishing to document a relinquishment especially if they are an accidental.
I break away from your idea where you state then apply for a CLN. A CLN is absolutely not required for loss of nationality!! Our friend Calgary411 is absolutely correct that the Consulate is not going to be helpful in documenting a relinquishment for anyone that may have difficulties. That would include a young 18 year old renouncing on her birthday or a 80 year old grandmother who is not as sharp as they used to be.
But the person in your idea could document the relinquishment with a letter from a lawyer.
In regards to Calgary’s situation, she is spot on in her assessment, her son a Canadian resident with Citizenship is solely and absolutely Canadian NOT because he does not have noticeable indica but rather because of international law, effective nationality, dominant nationality and the master nationality rule.
@Calgary411, every few days I pray for your son that his government will protect him from all foreign governments and that you will be given strength for your efforts in this just effort.
Some of this you already have but I had a couple more thoughts on your son as an aid to build in more heft to his “I am not a US Citizen file.” ALL of us, need to have real thick files documenting our actions, the law from the US and the law from our own countries.
I think you already have the UKBA description of the Master Nationality Rule as its the best on the web;
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/267945/dualnationality.pdf
You should have in his file, CONVENTION ON CERTAIN QUESTIONS RELATING TO THE CONFLICT OF NATIONALITY LAWS THE HAGUE – 12 APRIL 1930;
https://treaties.un.org/pages/LONViewDetails.aspx?src=LON&id=512&chapter=30&lang=en
Canada sadly opted out of the treaty in May 1996 BUT that was long after your son was born!!!
Your son was born at a time when his government signed a treaty that said “every person should
have a nationality and should have one nationality only.”
Sooo when your son was born he could only be Canadian and the proof of that choice was that he was issued a Canadian Passport.
Anyways, if you have not already added that to the file……..
I also think that this reference could be handy for accidentals and maybe for the ADCS lawsuit simply to add more weight to the file of fact.
Prior to 1996 Canada only recognized a single nationality as being a desirous public policy. Anyone born prior to then would have recognized that and they could only be Canadian!!!
So from an ADCS lawsuit perspective, there is an incompatibility between Canadian Nationality laws and US Nationality Laws. Based on that, whose law takes precedence in Canada?
Thank you, once again, George — from my family and other families like mine and the things you outline that can help ALL “accidentals” in their file regarding who they are.
Most important,
I am fortunate that I have crossed paths with you and your wisdom. It is your putting together such wisdom on this site and all the support we have from each other that keeps me going.
In 1962, my Canadian parents were in the U.S. when I came into this world. They registered my birth with the Canadian Embassy. I lived parts of my first two years of life in the U.S., but have lived in Canada ever since. Never had a U.S. passport or paid U.S. taxes. In 1980, my mother dragged me to the Canadian Consulate to swear allegiance to Canada, fearing I may be registered for the draft registration that Carter had implemented. The U.S. always treated me like a Canadian when crossing the border. Now with the recent changes in their tax law, the border guards are calling me American. 2 trips to the U.S. embassy in Calgary has added to the confusion. They at first thought I had lost my U.S. citizenship with my oath of allegiance in 1980, but now say that isn’t so. For other reasons they think I may not be an American and say a court case in Ottawa that has yet to be resolved may answer the question. Am I safe to cross the border in the meantime? That I have spent 50 years as a Canadian and now may also be an American with tax obligations seems ridiculous.
@Paul
You have been a dual-citizen since birth. The oath in 1980 (even as an 18-year-old) means nothing. You were already a Canadian citizen, so the oath didn’t change anything as far as Canada or the US are concerned. You did not perform an expatriating act in the eyes of the US and INA 349.
The only way a dual-citizen can claim some past relinquishment of US citizenship is by having performed Canadian military service or having worked for any level of government, and with the knowledge and intention that these were expatriating acts.
Otherwise, welcome to the club of perhaps hundreds of thousands of Canadians whose only options are to become tax-compliant ($5K to $40K) and renounce ($US2350), or, as others will tell you, do only some subset of the full meal deal and hope you don’t get caught or outed by your Canadian financial institutions (and never travel to the US again). Or, wait quietly hoping that the US will modify FATCA and/or citizenship-based taxation.
I wonder what the Ottawa court case is about? This could be very interesting. Is there any way to get more information about it?
@ Paul
Please don’t blame your dear Mother, because nobody knew at that time, but she marched you into the wrong country’s consulate in 1980. She needed to take you to the U.S. Consulate to renounce your U.S. citizenship. Now you’ve got the mark of the U.S. birth beast and it’s not easy to get it dissolved … but it can be done. There is some good news — no exit tax for dual-at-birthers. About crossing the border — probably safe for a short while but no guarantees. I personally will not go there EVER — entirely different story though. Good luck!
Paul. Don’t rush into anything. The border guys may be telling you that you are American but that doesn’t mean you have to change anything . Above all don’t rush out and get a US passport because that would be tantamount to agreeing with them. Wait until you have a much better understanding of the issues. Plenty of people born in the US are travelling south on Canadian passports.
@Paul
Just curious when this info regarding the court case in Ottawa would have been suggested to you? There was case involving CDN citizenship and swearing the oath (but not wanting to swear to the Queen) where a ruling was made in August. Just wondering if it might have been this particular case????
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/appeal-court-upholds-oath-to-queen-in-citizenship-case/article20032155/
Thank you for your advice Duke. I don’t think that is the court case Tricia, but I don’t know. In my case, swearing Allegiance to Canada in 1980 isn’t considered by the U.S. to be an expatriating act, because I was a Canadian citizen at birth, though the logic on that I find to be slippery. The court case the Embassy mentioned does involve an applicant older than me, which is basically all I know about the court case, and which would fit with the court case you mentioned. I don’t know how it would pertain to me, because I swore allegiance, but as I said earlier, the logic on some of this escapes me. Boy, you guys are fast to help out! Thank you.
@Paul, there’s no point in trying to apply logic to this whole scenario. The way the Americans see it your naturalising oath means nothing because you were born Canadian so there was really no point in doing it in the first place. It didn’t change your status in any way as you were already dual American/Canadian.
You will continue to be hassled about having an US passport every time you cross the border. The only way out is to renounce (fee $2,350) and get a CLN which you can then wave under their noses to show that you’re not an American, even though you happened to be born there. Details of CLN’s are entered on their database so they can check if they need to.
On 1 October I had my “renunciation” interview at the US Consulate in Amsterdam. (I received the date at the end of June). It was in fact about getting my relinqishment validated. The interview was mainly signing in triplicate the various forms I had sent in along with a statement and copies of my UK drivers licence, national insurance and heath service cards and seniors’ bus pass..
I was told that it would take months for the application to be dealt with.
And then they took my passport. I asked for a receipt and was told they don’t do them.
Is tihs SOP? If it’s in the FAM I missed it.