Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 2
US RELINQUISHMENT RENUNCIATION.m2
Above is a link to data we are compiling on Relinquishments and Renunciations — a work in progress.
(We are starting Part 2 as Part 1 has now over 1,000 comments.) Link to “Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 1”
This Relinquishment and Renunciation database corresponds with the Consulate Report Directory, which tracks individual experiences for each Consulate, along with a timeline chart.
Note: We are using numbers instead of blog names for this public posting so there will be no compromise of private information. Your facts will help give a snapshot of relinquishment and renunciation activity and where that occurs.
Please submit information in the comments below (or someone can contact you privately if you leave a message).
This database and the Consulate Report Directory have proven valuable resources for those new to the subject of relinquishment and renunciation. They can see numbers for and read others’ experiences of relinquishment or renunciation at various US consulates throughout the world — as reported by participants of the Isaac Brock site.
Thanks for your addition to the Relinquishment and Renunciation database. Your input will definitely help others.
@ Over the hedge
I relinquished back in April 2013 and my CLN was backdated to 1972 when I was hired by the Federal Gov’t.
This was at the Halifax Consulate. Hope you have the same results as I did.
Good luck.
Okay, I have some questions. For the third time this year I contacted Toronto consulate as to an update on my CLN since Sept. marks one year since I relinquished. I got back another one sentence reply that my case is still with the lawyers in Washington D.C. I really feel past the one year mark for a relinquishment that was recommended approved before it was sent to D.C. is taking far too long.
I realize they are backed up, busy and what not but, many others who went the same month I did and people with far more complicated situations already have had their CLN a few months now. What is your advice? Should I just call D.C. myself? I hate to do that but, I believe what is happening is that consulate in Toronto just checks their computer and “Yep, there’s your case still there.” but, they don’t call and find out any updates as to where on earth you are in the que. I don’t feel it would be unreasonable to ask directly myself since I am not even getting a remote guesstimate as to how much longer I will need to wait. My family really need to get on with our lives. I have a surgery scheduled this fall, we’ve got a lot going on otherwise too and every month that goes by my dad still is just hanging on and not that well. Do you think it would just cause me more issues to call them directly? Has anyone ever done it?
Also, if my relinquishment is denied *and I cannot fathom why it would be but, then I never thought it would be this long when I was orginally told probably four months* then what happens if I do not renounce right away. It was very important to me to relinquish and I told the officer that and that is why she called D.C. with me standing there and reported back to me that “It’s a relinquishment” So what happens if I say “I do not wish to renounce right away if ever.” Do I get my passport back or WHAT. I wouldn’t be able to renounce with that fee the way it is and furthermore I honestly feel I relinquished and to be completely honest renouncing says something different to me. I would want to be absolutely sure that going that road would be in keeping with my beliefs before I did it. I was comfortable as I could be relinquishing but, NOT renouncing. Sorry for all the questions but, I am really stymied as to what is taking a simple confirmed relinquishment so long and I have followed up with them three times since March.
@Atticus
I would call Washington DC next week. I would be very pissed off. also record the call.
Read a link where someone had an idea that I had had months ago – what would happen if we all filed on the same day?
Now I am thinking…. why file? Just because we have been peaceful, law-abiding Canadians why should we do as we are told?
Why not during the first week of every month we each put an envelope into the mail – with or without a form or note enclosed – and mail it to:
Department of the Treasury
Internal Revenue Service
Austin, TX 73301-0215
USA
Anyone could participate – and any number of envelopes be sent.
Perhaps when they are buried under mounds of envelopes they will start to rethink this entire system of taxation.
Atticus, call, be firm and record it. If nothing shows up, it’s probably time to have a lawyer draft and letter and send it.
You relinquished. You are not an American. They are just being dicks about it because they know there is nothing they can do.
So file your final IRS stuff and forget about it. The CLN will show up but you shouldn’t have any trouble with Canadian banks in the meantime because that IGA of theirs says they have to accept your relinquishment and a not so subtle reminder that you’d be happy to have your lawyer call them will be all that’s probably necessary for that.
Though I hate to indulge in conspiracy, don’t forget you are a vocal opponent of FATCA and your tardy CLN could be just their dickish last stab at you.
I got my letter for the oath ceremony and will be just a Canadian soon. Going to hunt down the info on informing the consulate, asking for an appointment and gathering my documentation this week. I am still too angry to be bitter or sad but I am quits with them and soon I will have all I need to get on with my life here.
Let us know how it goes with the phone call. It probably deserves a post of its in.
@AtticusinCanada
FYI
Was previously posted that the office that approves CLNs for Canada (and assume all of N.America) is:
Clay Adler, Division Chief
Western Hemisphere Affairs
Office of American Citizens Services
202-485-6289
10th Floor, SA-17
Department of State
2201 C Street NW
Washington DC 20520
This information is not classified and is in various public directories.
See: https://archive.org/details/StatePhone130830
Mr Adler is listed on social media site LinkedIn.
He seems like a highly educated lawyer who spent time abroad with an NGO.
Maybe reach out to him?
Thanks, Wondering. Useful info for Atticus — and others. I noticed, though, that that link to the DoS phone book goes to an archived edition from last year. The contact info has likely remained the same for Clay Adler. However, there is also a link to the phone book through the Sidebar, under “Important Info,” “DoS Forms … Contact Info” which links to a site where DoS uploads the current edition regularly, seems to be weekly or daily.
Hello all,
I have been reading as much as I can find about relinquishing U.S. citizenship, and came across EmBee’s post (July 18, 2014 at 8:38 pm), where she said that her husband obtained a “witnessed letter” to verify his intent. I’m wondering who wrote that letter and the gist of what it may have said. I’d appreciate any information you might be willing to share.
Thanks!
@ Sammy Habersleeve
The letter of intent was a DIY (I helped him write it) which my husband took to his Canadian citizenship ceremony. The citizenship officer was delighted to witness it for him during his interview just before the ceremony. The next day he e-mailed a copy of this signed letter of intent to the US consulate. This is the format:
He really wouldn’t have had a chance to ask the judge presiding at the ceremony to sign his letter as there were over 60 new citizens taking the oath that day but the US consulate had no problem with it being signed by the citizenship officer. You could jigger around with the wording. Good luck to you!
Wow, thank you for the information! It’s much appreciated.
There are no Canadian citizenship ceremonies scheduled for the date of my interview, so I don’t think I’ll have an opportunity to get a Citizenship Officer to sign a letter (unless the officers are also at the ceremonies).
@ Sammy
The Citizenship Officer was there prior to the actual ceremony, checking everyone in with the help of some assistants. I think some people had to do their citizenship test after checking in because there was a 2 hour wait before the ceremony started. (My husband was old enough to not have to write a citizenship test.) Things may be organized differently in other cities. I’d have the letter ready to present for signing at whatever opportunity arises. My husband’s CLN was dated for the arrival of his e-mail (letter of intent attached) at the US consulate (day after ceremony), even though he had to wait several months to get an appointment to confirm his relinquishment. There was no fee.
Brilliant! I’ll do the same. Thanks so much!
Sammy Habersleeve, my daughter and I recently became Canadian citizens and I used Embee’s template to fashion one of my own for myself and my daughter.
The judge was not accessible for signing (there were over 100 of us and there was another equally large group gathering for a ceremony right after us, but the Citizenship officer who oversaw the ceremony signed both of our relinquishment intent statements. He signed my junior high age daughter’s statement without batting an eye, as a matter of fact though this might be explained by the fact that in our province, junior high age kids are credited with the right to decide some things for themselves in the eyes of the law.
Anyway, I also contacted the consulate prior to our schedule oath ceremony to let them know of our intent and to request documents we would need to fill out. I received a prompt email reply (which I am keeping as part of my paper trail).
Planning to have the relinquishing statements notarized or at least certified and then sending an e-copy of them along with requested paperwork back to the consulate.
I have low hopes for my daughter being deemed “competent” to relinquish at this point given her age but if we keep at them perhaps by high school they might relent. Never say never!
Good luck to you!
can anyone tell me about the filing of the form 8854 after expatriation and how long that has to continue?
@Swisscookie, you file it once only, after you’ve renounced/relinquished as this is the form to clear up your US tax obligations. Go to http://www.irs.gov and search for 8854 to get the form so you can study it.
@EmBee, that was a brilliant letter and should be a resource here at IBS. Suggested tweets for future use in Commonwealth Countries;
I [name], on this date [date], in the city of [name, province] having sworn an Oath of Allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, affirm my sole and absolute allegiance to Canada and in so doing it was my voluntary intention to have absolutely relinquished my citizenship/nationality in the United States of America under 8 U.S. Code § 1481 , to avoid any conflict of allegiances.
Signed _________________ Date_________
Sworn before
______________ Date_________
Canadian Citizenship Officer/Notary/Lawyer
@swisscookie
You file 8854 the year following the year you renounced. It is due with your final year return, June 15, or Oct 15 if you get an extension.
See: http://hodgen.com/when-to-file-form-8854-2/
@ tdott
I imagine 8854 can also be filed earlier than June 15, just as the 1040 can be. Unless they’ve changed something, the extension to June 15 is automatic for US persons abroad, but if any tax is owed, interest is charged from April 15.
The earliest date for filing is sometime in January.
@tdott
but you do have to wait until you receive the cln, i am guessing.
another question: i have filed my us taxes in switzerland for over 15 years and never owed anything. (i always paid my swiss taxes and always was employed there.) the tax forms were accepted by the irs. however, i never did file the fbar, never realized exactly what it was and since i had sent in my tax forms, didn’t think i needed this. will this be a problem? anyone have any experience with this?
@ swisscookie
The CLN is not “required” in order to file 8854 and your final 1040 and 1040NR. The important date is the date on which you report your relinquishment or renounce at the US embassy or consulate. But then what happens if for some reason your relinquishment/renouncement is denied? No one knows. I think most people would say it is best to go ahead and file 8854 and the other forms by June 15 of the following year even if your CLN has not arrived, since except in very complicated cases, CLNs are not often denied.
Regarding the fbars, technically you are required to file them. Opinion here on that is divided. Some will say that your should file them to be completely sure that you have done everything required, while others will say they are not that important. There have been some here who have filed 8854 without filing fbars and have as yet not had any problems. And there have as yet been no reports of anyone filing 8854 without filing fbars who has had a problem. But the number of known cases is still very small, so there is no way to be absolutely sure.
It is important to note, however, that a prominent tax attorney has stated the opinion that fbars are not required in order to answer ‘yes’ to the question on the 8854 regarding whether you have complied with your tax obligations for the previous 5 years, since fbars are not actually a part of the US tax code.
thank you all for your responses. it is so nice to be able to share on this page. i have felt so alone and confused with all that has transpired regarding the taxes and finances of the states.
with heartfelt appreciation….
Swisscookie. FBARs come under a different law than tax returns. That’s the reason for the opinion that you can answer “I have been tax compliant for 5 years” without having filed FBARs . There are NO reports of 8854 s being challenged. Consider a donation of any amount to ADCS .
swisscookie –
Chiming in because no one seems to have pointed out that for 2011 and years following IRS expects 8938 (unless you have no significant assets), a form that unfortunately IS part of regular tax filing compliance, and a clone of the info required by FBAR. Down the line, anticipate triangulation. Likely that the US will be comparing 8938 info with FBAR info …
Swisscookie. The threshold for reporting on 8938 are very very much higher than for FBARs. 200,000 US$ on Dec31 or 300,000 at any time during the year.