Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 2
US RELINQUISHMENT RENUNCIATION.m2
Above is a link to data we are compiling on Relinquishments and Renunciations — a work in progress.
(We are starting Part 2 as Part 1 has now over 1,000 comments.) Link to “Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 1”
This Relinquishment and Renunciation database corresponds with the Consulate Report Directory, which tracks individual experiences for each Consulate, along with a timeline chart.
Note: We are using numbers instead of blog names for this public posting so there will be no compromise of private information. Your facts will help give a snapshot of relinquishment and renunciation activity and where that occurs.
Please submit information in the comments below (or someone can contact you privately if you leave a message).
This database and the Consulate Report Directory have proven valuable resources for those new to the subject of relinquishment and renunciation. They can see numbers for and read others’ experiences of relinquishment or renunciation at various US consulates throughout the world — as reported by participants of the Isaac Brock site.
Thanks for your addition to the Relinquishment and Renunciation database. Your input will definitely help others.
Well said, Atticus.
What a waste of our time and energy that I would rather put to use in many different ways that would have much more benefit to my Canadian society. I said once that this whole realization and dealing with it has taken the joy out of my life.
Part of that joy was having more time to be able to give back in more meaningful ways than the working years. I absolutely know that I will never regain that same level of joy and trust. I think many of us have been drastically changed by all of this.
That is another US theft from this country — and others.
@yogagirl, they take your American passport when you relinquish or renounce. They still consider you a U.S. citizen until your relinquishment is approved in D.C. and the document is issued to you.
Your passport however is still valid. You do not negate your relinquishment by using that passport number which is valid IF You are told you must present it or told you have to present it. So if you travel you should present your Canadian passport and if required show the letter of interim travel with your U.S. passport number on it.
I know this because when I relinquished I had traveled since taking Canadian citizenship on my U.S. passport as I was told to do at the border. The consulate officer told me then and called D.C. to confirm that this does not negate your relinquishing act as long as you were required to travel by the border officer by presenting a U.S. passport number or U.S. passport. So using the interim letter is fine and so is using your U.S. passport before relinquishment IF you were told you had to do so by the border officer. Otherwise you should always present your Canadian passport as any other Canadian would and if the U.S. information passport number or actual passport is not requested then you should not just use it automatically is my understanding. Present yourself as only Canadian unless requested to do otherwise.
That is what I intend to do. Present Canadian passport and if asked about my situation otherwise will present interim letter of travel.
@ WhiteKat,
Re:
Further to Atticus’ reply, some general info about your question:
It depends when the relinquishment occurred. The current law on this (26 USC 877A) came in to effect in 2008 (preceded by laws that took effect in 2004 and 1995). So, some people were already not USCs at the time these laws came into effect, but Atticus was.
Phil Hodgen mentions to Patrick Cain at Global News (Toronto)
and Michael Miller writes about it in detail in The Malevolant Time Machine.
There’s some other links about this in this post.
@calgary so true. I think many having gone through this entire process will have a type of post traumatic stress for many years. I am still extremely stressed that 1) my CLN has still not arrived 2) I still have not prepared my final filings, fbars etc due to incredible lack of time to put into this nonsense (you know time spent working, surviving and feeding my family!) 3) The expense of all this has not been something I can even afford which puts further stress on my family.
It really does feel that we have all been violated in some way. All men should have free will, but the US has essentially claimed ownership of our lives and souls. The fact there are 300 million Americans and they are putting a couple 1,000 people through this who want to leave is extremely twisted and sadistic. I know “1st world problems” and all that, sure there are people in far far worse conditions. But still, the fundamental violation of our human rights is the same. I wanted to leave the US and have fond memories of my time there intact, I wanted to have a positive outlook on the country of my birth. Now… after all of this, seeing what everyone here is dealing with to simply be free men.. I view the US as a sick and twisted nation and hope to never set foot there again as long as I live.
Re: Border Crossing.
Schubert has written a post on this, followed by people commenting with their border-crossing experiences, on Maple Sandbox. He mentions that Mrs. Schubert was told by the consul that DHS at the border can see, in a shared database with DoS, that a person has a CLN application in process.
That’s good to know, but still I think a person would feel a lot better if they themself also had some form of proof in the interim – don’t know why, especially given the long length of time it takes to get the CLN, every consulate doesn’t *automatically* hand out an interim letter.
@Atticus, that makes no sense whatsoever but I suspect that is the purpose. Technically, your relinquishment goes back to the day of the act committed so really, you aren’t a USC and they know it. They are just effing with you b/c they can. But good to know about the ins/outs of border crossing etiquette as a former USC.
There is probably some big cosmic lesson in this shite for all of us but I, for one, am uninterested in learning it.
@Calgary, Indeed!! This has been a sea change in my life and not in a good way. I don’t think I can ever go back to they way I felt about the U.S. in general, Canada, my relationship with my personal banker, and much, much more. However, I AM determined to make a silk purse out of a sows ear as much as possible when this is all over. I used to do a ton of volunteer work and while I’m not physically as well as I once was I’d like to get back to contributing to things held dear to me all my life.
@Pukekonz, I am in your exact situation. I had to spend money we didn’t have traveling, getting past bank records, doing forms and felt bad about that being a burden to my family while we struggle to help our kid go to school among other things! I am also highly stressed at how long this has gone on. At first I managed the stress very well but, as this drags on and on and on it seems to over whelm at times Not healthy at all for anyone.
@Yogagirl, no it doesn’t make sense at all but, that’s the “protocol” I thought it might help someone to know you can still relinquish if you were requested to use your U.S. passport at the border. My consular officer called D.C. directly as I was standing there on this matter. The other stuff……yeah…border protocol so as to protect your relinquishing act. Does all this have to be SO convoluted??
pukekonz,
You are describing well how FATCA violates section 7 of our Charter – the right to life, liberty and security of the person. It violates sections 7, 8 & 15 and I’m confident that Joe Arvay will prepare arguments on all three.
It is helpful to be grateful for all the privileges that we still enjoy, as opposed to many people exposed to war, violence, torture, poverty etc. around the world. I have donated to Amnesty International for years but injustice in the world has taken on a new meaning to me, now that I have experienced it personally.
@Atticus
I went July 15 last year to US Consulate in Toronto for my relinquishment CLN. They told me 4 months. I got it in the mail, May 1st. It was stamped in DC in March. I paid nothing and filed no returns or FBARS. the CLN is backdated to Feb 1993 when I became a Canadian citizen. I was filing US TAX returns up to and including tax year 1993. I never had a US passport.
You should be getting yours soon by next month if it goes the time sequence as mine.
This might be a ray of hope for those looking to file in the US to become compliant:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-investor/personal-finance/taxes/new-irs-amnesty-program-offers-expats-a-ray-of-hope/article19063135/
Interesting that Barrie is now calling FATCA what I have been calling it… “a massive dragnet”
All part of Dragnet Nation… 🙂
I am at the point of having so much distrust that they could say they are going to RBT immediately and I would not believe it until I saw it with my own eyes. I don’t see any “ray of hope” at all. As long as the U.S. has these “come clean” programs for INNOCENT people who would never owe them anything at all like children born here to persons who used to live in the U.S. themselves as children I won’t see any “ray of hope”
I am insulted the U.S. thinks most of these people have something to “come clean” about. A ray of hope the U.S. probably thinks is shining out of its posterior.
Yet ANOTHER program that fails to fix the issue. Redefine off shore to mean an account held where you do not live or go to RBT. All else is immoral and unacceptable. They say it’s their “law” but, there have been many, many deeply flawed and immoral laws in the past. FATCA and CBT fall into a category of “laws” that are utterly unjust. They only ray of hope most have is getting their CLN and putting this incident behind them. And for those who cannot get a CLN there is still no hope without RBT or redefine what is meant by “off shore” with regard to every last one of these IGA’s.
heartsick,
Another small ray of hope — fool me once, shame you you. Fool me twice, shame on me. For thoughts on rays of hope, read the comments to the story.
Are people still finding that Calgary is still efficient for relinquishing. I finally received by Canadian Citizenship after 3 years, am compliant in filing my US returns & FBARs and am ready, willing and able to relinquish. Vancouver is closer, but I am willing to drive to Calgary if it is easier. Thoughts? Thank you.
Vancouver seems to be on the ball now. Only one visit required and approximately a 2 month wait for an appointment (that may have changed, so YMMV).
Email VancouverCLN@state.gov to get the ball rolling – they’ll want you to submit some forms before giving you an appointment.
Thank you.
I have received the forms. The questionnaire refers to renouncing not relinquishing, specifically questions 13 & 14. Should I simply answer “no” or add “N/A as I am relinquishing”?
@ PO’d Yankee,
I’m not clear what questionnaire you’re referring to. Doesn’t sound like the DS-4079. Are you referring to a local questionnaire? If so, what are questions 13 and 14? Something like this?
WHEN YOU TAKE THE OATH OF RENUNCIATION WILL YOU
____ SWEAR, OR ____ AFFIRM, TO THE OATH?
Local questionnaires tend to be pretty short, and have pretty similar questions, but the numbering isn’t always consistent.
Yes. Thanks.
@ PO’d Yankee.
I don’t think it matters if you write n/a or leave it blank. Not that I know — but it’s an informal questionnaire, so I wouldn’t think it’s a big thing. I don’t know from personal experience as they didn’t have that questionnaire when I relinquished. Probably another relinquisher will let you know what they did.
FWIW, relinquishers do have to swear or affirm the DS-4081 (Statement of Understanding of Consequences) when they’re at the consulate.
Friend renounced last week in Bern- along with 3-4 others.
I’m with pacifica777 in that I don’t think it matters too much how you answer as it’s an informal questionnaire.
May I suggest something like the below (polish to suit):
“I am documenting a prior relinquishment, not renouncing, however if required to swear or affirm, I choose to [insert-choice-here]”.
Guys, got the word today my CLN was approved! I am so relieved! Although now I have to get all the back filings and stuff done, not looking forward to that but oh well. I better get on top of that asap, hopefully done within the next 4 weeks if I buckle down. At least I can see a light at the end of the tunnel. I can’t wait to put all this behind me. My CLN was obtained from Auckland NZ and took roughly 8 months.
I forgot to thank all of those who helped me through this. Not feeling alone in this has made all the difference in the world. I’ll still be around 🙂
pukekonz, pukekonz,
Big congratulations on finally getting your CLN through Auckland, NZ. Keep up the momentum — you’re almost to the end of the maze. Glad you’ll be sticking around for further information and for your situation to help others.
@pukekonz, congratulations! Definitely on the final downhill slope now. Keep up the good work and soon you’ll be finished with the US completely. Whatever you do remember the FBAR deadline is 30th June!