Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 2
US RELINQUISHMENT RENUNCIATION.m2
Above is a link to data we are compiling on Relinquishments and Renunciations — a work in progress.
(We are starting Part 2 as Part 1 has now over 1,000 comments.) Link to “Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 1”
This Relinquishment and Renunciation database corresponds with the Consulate Report Directory, which tracks individual experiences for each Consulate, along with a timeline chart.
Note: We are using numbers instead of blog names for this public posting so there will be no compromise of private information. Your facts will help give a snapshot of relinquishment and renunciation activity and where that occurs.
Please submit information in the comments below (or someone can contact you privately if you leave a message).
This database and the Consulate Report Directory have proven valuable resources for those new to the subject of relinquishment and renunciation. They can see numbers for and read others’ experiences of relinquishment or renunciation at various US consulates throughout the world — as reported by participants of the Isaac Brock site.
Thanks for your addition to the Relinquishment and Renunciation database. Your input will definitely help others.
We would be interested to know if those applying now for Relinquishment & a CLN effective on a date prior to 2003 have been filing Form 8854 or have been asked at the interview or subsequently, to file Form 8854 . What have the tax/FBAR consequences been for those seeking relinquishment effective long ago?
– We are aware of the philosophic discussion that Form 8854 ought not to be required, but what has been the actual experience? Thanks.
@Greggorio,
I applied for a CLN about two years ago for my relinquishment of US citizenship in the late 1970s. I received the CLN a year ago this past January. I have not filed form 8854 with the IRS, nor have I been in contact with them in any way. So far the IRS has not contacted me, and my name has not appeared on any of the the quarterly lists published in the U.S. Federal Register of “Individuals, Who Have Chosen to Expatriate … with respect to whom the Secretary [of the Treasury] received information during the quarter …”
I suppose it is still possible that the IRS might decide to pursue me for not reporting to them, but for them to do so would be very counter-productive to them. It would cost them more money than they could possibly collect from me. And to choose a case like mine to try to set a precedent would turn into a public relations disaster for them. How could the IRS claim jurisdiction over a person who has not been a US citizen or resident for over 30 years?
I don’t know when you relinquished US citizenship, but if it was 20 or more years ago, I wouldn’t worry about the IRS.
@Greggorio that is the million dollar question. Does anyone have an idea? The circa-early 2000’s is an interesting one. As the 8854 existed and should – as far as I can see – have been filed.
So if you get your CLN backdated to early 2000’s – which 8854? Presumably the one applying to the date – but then are you late filing it – and getting a fine for doing so?
What is you never have done tax returns prior to relinquishing? Presumably you would have been required to do them even if you had no clue. I am puzzled by this too.
Here is an interesting question that I am curious as to whether anyone has some thoughts in terms of an answer. How many Canadian do you think are renouncing US citizenship this year and last. Do you think 1,000 is too high of a number.
Tim, there are eight US consulates in Canada. Each would have to handle 62.5 a year to produce 1000 renunciants over 2 years, am I not correct? 1000 doesn’t seem too high a number.
@ Tim
There were 10 the day my husband was at the Calgary consulate. Even if they only did these once a week that could be as high as 500 in one year. Multiply that by the number of consulates in Canada and I actually think your 1000 is low. They really do not want the true number to get out and they hold all the data cards so all we can do is guess … I guess.
Hi Guys, I haven’t been around for a while. I am still waiting on my CLN, I think it’s been almost 8-9 months and still no word. They must be slammed. Anyway, just going through the process of backfiling with one of these on line attorney deals. I need to do 2008-2012 and 2013 plus 8854. They mention fbars and this is one thing I am not sure of. over the last 5yrs have i had any accounts totalling 10k US or more? Maybe once or twice over 10yrs but I do not recall, maybe not at all. It makes me feel like ignoring this because I don’t think I have gone over 10k (the work to figure out if I did once or twice in 5yrs seems insane and I don’t even have time to do the back filings which is in itself hugely stressful trying to fit into my schedule). Suppose I am wrong and should have filed a fbar or two? well how do they get access to this information to find out I was wrong? Say fatca goes in and they then want access to the info, at this point I have my CLN, and have already informed my bank I am no longer a “US Person” and they are under no circumstances to give my private information to a foreign entity. I’m not sure how they would get hold of my accounts from 5yrs ago when I’m no longer a US person. Also, my previous 5yr filings would show I am a small fish never going near the threshold so I can’t imagine they would care anyway. Also, my wife is a New Zealander and I am moving to put all assets, bank accounts and business in her name only.. leaving me with nothing -yes, this is my twisted way of having nothing to my name so I just sleep better (even if it’s unnecessary I feel better these maniacs can’t come after a non-american nz citizen like my wife -and her accounts would surely be off-limits to prying eyes.). Anyway… sorry for rambling but I just have to decide what to do about this fbar lunacy or just say f’it. Thanks for any info.
@pukekonz
Kiwi be staunch! You can do this. This is actually the least painful bit to do – and if you do it yourself, you can save some money. This one you can control but one of the most painful $$$ if you don’t. I think you *only* need to do 6 year Fbars anyway.
To make it less painful – start by making a list of every financial institution you may have had dealing with
Then contact any that you need to, to gather every year’s statement. You may find some online, some you may have already, others a simple phone call or a visit can start the process of data gathering. D not except any excuses, banks have to keep 7 years records by law. If they can produce a single calendar year Jan-Dec statement – fantastic.
This will take some time to gather – just get it kicked off asap – make the banks do as much work as possible – test their customer service skills make them pay for your custom.
Once everything arrives, check for any missing items. Repeat the above until you have a stack of paper – (I prefer paper) or know where they are online.
Sort them by calendar years.
Skim thru them noting (mentally) the highest (or highlighting) the highest on each monthly statement.
Take a note of the date of the highest balance in each year – in case you want to recheck at any time.
Note the account number and type. This is relatively fast if you have done the first part.
Take a note of the name and address of the bank – the head office/whatever you can find.
Spreadsheets work nicely for this, if that’s your fancy.
With your balances, you may find that some years that you can pull out of a full analysis early – as you know you are nowhere near 10k across every account (don’t forget to include kiwisaver).
If you can get all the statements together to start with, the rest is relatively easy. It’s boring and annoying but do it and sleep better.
I’m not sure if there is a list of all the account types you need to report at the moment – maybe someone can provide that? But you need to report bank accounts, share trading accounts, I even reported debit card numbers linked to bank accounts, credit cards if they positive balances and pensions accounts.
Good luck
Thanks for all the info! What do you make of this? http://hodgen.com/expatriate-without-filing-fbars-sure-thing/ He makes it sound like it’s unnecessary?
@pukekonz
It sounds like you don’t have any FBAR requirements, so why bother with it? Look at what @nolongerauscitizen wrote. Given your situation I think it would be madness to put yourself through that ordeal and put yourself at further risk without a compelling reason to do so.
[Carrying on with my position as official buzzkill]
I think it’s necessary to differentiate between IRS compliance w.r.t. 8854, and FBAR compliance. You can be 8854 compliant and not be FBAR compliant. *However*, willful failure to file FBARs can, in theory, result in severe civil penalties (and, I think even criminal penalties). And I imagine that it gets somewhat tricky to argue non-willfulness if you’ve gone to the trouble to back-file 5 years of returns. So it is possible for you to exit the tax system and not be a “covered” expat, but still be on the hook for FBAR penalties, AFAICT.
One possibility for someone who is unable to get 6 years of statements may be to just estimate on the high side. AFAIK, there is no penalty for over-reporting, so take a best guess and add a *healthy* percentage. Also, it is possible to just tick the box on the form that says “Maximum account value unknown” (though you have to think that may lead to questions later).
As usual, each individual can decide for themselves what to do based on their aversion to risk and whether they’re interested in making a statement. I just think people should be aware of the potential consequences of actions.
I renounced my U.S. citizenship on July 25, 2013 and received my CLN today (May 2, 2014). Just over eight months!
Congratulations, Jennifer. Where did you renounce?
@ Jennifer
Congratulations! That’s you, allou and saddened123 who got CLNs today. They say bad news comes in threes but today it has been good news. Wonder if there are any more May 2nd CLN arrivals? Hope so.
@Jennifer, Congratulations!! Wonderful Feeling! Celebrate!
@Em, Thank you so much! Your husband will be getting his CLN in the near future, it will be great!
@ saddened123
I think he has at least another 4 months to wait … probably more. Judging from the wait times I see posted here and there.
@Em, It will go by pretty fast, 4 months is not that long. I was surprised to see that the relinquishing date was the date I got the citizenship, not the actual date I went to the US Consulate to Relinquish. The thing is I have had my US Tax Returns filled out for about a month now just waiting to receive the CLN before mailing them off. So on my Returns I used the actual date that I relinquished at the Consulate, not the date I received my Canadian Citizenship. I don’t know if this is going to make a big difference or not, its just 1 month difference. I am sure not going to redo the returns, not at the cost I have had to pay. What is your opinion?? Do you think it will make a big difference??
If they use citizenship date not relinquishment date then my husband will be in a quandary too because he plans to file full year for 2013 using the assumption it is the latter date. (His CLN could come AFTER the October 1040 extension date and the damn FuBAR is due June 30, no matter what.) His dates are Sept. 2013 and Feb. 2014. And then there’s that 8854 filing late problem — yipes! I’m such a bad one for giving advice but I’d just send yours off with a note because one month shouldn’t make a difference (kind of like overestimating rather than underestimating). They can always send it back for a redo but that would be awfully anal if they did. If they’re smart they’ll just stamp FILE COMPLETE and be done with you. And someone better with advice will probably tell you the opposite.
Hi guys, one more question.. I’m heading towards 7 months without CLN yet. I thought you only had a certain amount of time to file 8854? How am I supposed to file 8854 within a year if it takes over a year to get my CLN? I mean how do I do an 8854 not knowing if I even get my CLN? Or, am I not liable to file 8854 until a year *after* I get my CLN? Sort of confusing. Also thanks for the FBAR information. I guess I will try to work with my bank on this. One worry is my kiwi partner and I sold a house (joint owned) before moving islands, then bought at our new destination. That was the only time we’ve been + on our home loan account, maybe + 150k US due to the sale, but when we got down here and re-bought we were back to -250k US (this all happened within a month). Other than that no accounts really totalled over 10k but I will double check anyway.. I’ll sure be glad when this chapter of my life is over!!
@pukekonz
Deep breath…
If you account went over 10k (even for a minute) – you need an Fbar. I sometimes(ok always!) think they are a really stupid form. If as I do, you move money around a lot – you can end up looking like a millionaire as the same money appears in multiple accounts during the year – duh. ONE Fbar – really? Jealous – you should be whooping.
8854 well let’s see.you must have applied last year – I did you renounce or relinquish?
Now this is just my logic:-
If you renounced then your CLN is assured. – I would go ahead and file it with Expiration date 2014 (use 2014 form) but notified date would be last year when you did the deed. Am I missing something? I can’t think of any reason what else might you be waiting for? 8854 stops the tax clock ticking.
If you are a new-Kiwi i.e. Relinquished and they (might) refuse – then you will have to renounce later, so the tax clock keeps ticking. So logically, no one can blame you for not having filed! If it gets sticky just add a note with it explaining why it’s late. I’ve written numerous notes over the years… to which I hear nothing but tumble weeds in reply. I guess they’re filed somewhere 🙂
I don’t know if you realised… the US has capital gains tax (house sale!). BUT (in a nutshell) as long as you are under 250k USD profit allowance (assuming you’re filing married filing separately) – you should be free of capital gains limit for your home (poxy limit isn’t it?) Some extra bits on that – you need to have owned the home and lived in the home for a minimum of two years. Those two years do not need to be consecutive. There is a reduced limit if you lived there for less time – anyway – just hand that baby over to those people you are filing with.
Can I be a nicky-picky person too? Be careful if you are still in the tax clock-ticking-maybe still a prisoner time – if you are gifting things to your wife – just don’t forget to do the gift forms too as or if necessary) – no tax – just another F-N form 🙂
Which online company are you filing with BTW?
I can’t believe NZ is taking so long to get your CLN – WFT!
if I’m wrong on any of the above, I hope wiser people will step in…
@pukekonz
You might not worry so much about the FBAR filing, if you look at Phil Hodgen’s advice. FATCA form, maybe required, as it is part of your tax filings, but FBAR is not an IRS form, so why bother now..?
http://hodgen.com/expatriate-without-filing-fbars-sure-thing/
My CLN came in the mail on May 1st. I went on July 15th, 2013 to Toronto consulate. I relinquished and it is back dated to February 19, 1993 when I became a Canadian citizen.
Congratulations to those Brockers who also got their CLNs.
Fantastic northernstar! This means no nasty form filing for you right? I only wish they hadn’t kept you hanging for almost 10 months. I hope you’ll still keep up the fight for those who haven’t reached freedom yet or are living in uncertainty. But for now just do your happy dance and treat yourself to whatever makes your inner sun shine.
@Em
Correct, no more forms. I send back confirmation they sent signed I received rhe CLN and case closed. I was ready to write a cheque at the debate yesterday but was told not yet. I am not getting off the bus. I am here to the end with all of you. I think we all will stop FATCA or get it changed.