Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 2
US RELINQUISHMENT RENUNCIATION.m2
Above is a link to data we are compiling on Relinquishments and Renunciations — a work in progress.
(We are starting Part 2 as Part 1 has now over 1,000 comments.) Link to “Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 1”
This Relinquishment and Renunciation database corresponds with the Consulate Report Directory, which tracks individual experiences for each Consulate, along with a timeline chart.
Note: We are using numbers instead of blog names for this public posting so there will be no compromise of private information. Your facts will help give a snapshot of relinquishment and renunciation activity and where that occurs.
Please submit information in the comments below (or someone can contact you privately if you leave a message).
This database and the Consulate Report Directory have proven valuable resources for those new to the subject of relinquishment and renunciation. They can see numbers for and read others’ experiences of relinquishment or renunciation at various US consulates throughout the world — as reported by participants of the Isaac Brock site.
Thanks for your addition to the Relinquishment and Renunciation database. Your input will definitely help others.
@web administrator
Just realized that the excellent renunciation guide which succinctly covers nearly all aspects of the process is now back and filed under Consulate Report Directory, online resources. The previous link to the renunciation, guide that was filed at the bottom of each comment page (black area) no longer works.
Can this link be re- activated?
admin It would be better if this link were also filed under ‘external resources’ at the bottom of the opening page to replace the outdated link. and perhaps repeated under “our resources ” on the right hand side of the opening page. It would be easier to find. It is an invaluable resource.
Agreed, it answers so many questions that new brockers ask repeatedly and are often unable to find in the abundance of past information and advice given.
@heidi,
The Renunciation Guide is an excellent resource. However, it is an archived version — and fortunately has been preserved, but unfortunately no longer being updated and maintained — any important changes in procedure will not be shown.
My feeling is the appropriate place for the Renunciation Guide resource that is no longer updated is in the very comprehensive list of resources that pacifica has compiled in the Consulate Report Directory that she does maintain and does such a good job of keeping current. It should be the go-to document here (and anywhere) for those considering expatriation. http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/consulate2/
@calgary411
All you folks do a fantastic job. It’s just the Renunciation Guide document is so very comprehensive and helpful yet now is so hard to find!
heidi and all,
Perhaps the Consulate Report Directory on the sidebar could be better described — it is more than just the experiences of those who have renunciated and relinquished. It is the most complete source of what each person contemplating expatriation needs to know, including resources (which include the good Renunciation Guide, which is now archived and will not be kept up to date).
The following on Tina Turner writes that the 2 month waiting period to renounce is to ensure that the renunciation is not the result of anger:
http://www.sonntagonline.ch/ressort/aktuell/2935/
Google translation to English: http://translate.google.ca/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sonntagonline.ch%2Fressort%2Faktuell%2F2935%2F
Toronto consulate
Appt made February 2013
One appointment, made online
March 2013
Refused relinquishment, allowed to renounce
Still waiting for CLN in mail
@The Mom,
Thanks for the information on your Toronto consulate experience. It will be included in the important resources we build here. Your CLN should arrive sooner rather than later, much better turn-around than for those a year earlier.
Congratulations — on trying the relinquishment route, which didn’t work for you and then being allowed to renounce. The costs in many ways will be more, but at least you are almost free. Let us know your next milestone being reached — the receipt of your CLN.
I just got an e-mail from the Toronto consulate which was really weird. It was for someone I never met and obviously was sent in error to my e-mail.
Banany, did you check with the Toronto consulate on that email? It may be about YOUR CLN. You have not yet received yours, correct? If so, you need to follow up, I think.
@Calgary411
It was not about the CLN. It concerned an individual with a French name who the consulate was trying to find to get his passport info. I e-mailed to ask why in the bleep they were sending this to my e-mail and asked them why I don’t yet have the CLN while others who renounced and relinquished at Toronto around the same time as I already have theirs.
Thanks, banany. Soon, soon — should be soon! I think you’re still in the time they predicted for receipt of your CLN. But as soon as that time is over, time for a follow-up, which has worked out OK for others. Fingers crossed.
There’s something amiss with the formatting on this thread — perhaps unique to my computer. ????? Comments are on the right with only one or two words per line. And the column which is usually on the right is on the left. ????? All the other threads are okay.
Thanks, Em. It’s wonky when I look at it too. I just updated the link in that thread, so I hope I didn’t screw it up. I’ll check with Petros and see if he can figure out what’s what.
Thanks calgary411. Here’s a little Victoria Day treat for you and Brockers living in Canada.
Thanks, Em. That was lovely and led me to other beautiful bird song and relaxation choices. Something we all should take time for once in awhile, away from the ugliness.
Thanks for repairing this thread. Nothing amiss, nothing wonky now.
1. Contacted the US Embassy in London (UK) the first week in May 2013. The email address was bounced back, and I finally tried on the Embassy’s comments/complaints webpage.
2. About 5 days later, I received an email with all the information and forms. Had to scan my papers and attach them to a response by email. If you are not computer savvy, you’re out of luck.
3. Submitted all the papers, completed as directed ( they are not well written questions and you could easily make a mistake) today (25/05/13). They should respond with a date for the renunciation appointment. ‘First come, first served basis’ and only for the next month. Appointments are once monthly. If there are no places available, you must apply again for the next month, apparently. I will update when I know more. The Embassy is the only place in the UK that handles this, so no choice to go to, say, Wales, which is much closer.
@Rev Susi,
Are you saying that through email correspondence, you were told that the London Embassy will reserve for renunciation / relinquishment appointments only one day per month — that you cannot make an appointment through “Notary Services” (which is the way it is done for most consulates in Canada, save Calgary for which you need to correspond by email (and which is very efficient the way they do it and the last I knew scheduled for two days per week there).
For the US Embassy in London, http://london.usembassy.gov/, I clicked on US CITIZEN SERVICES, then on NOTARY SERVICES (left hand side). Toward the end of that page, I clicked on:
Where to make your appointment
Click the following link if you wish to Schedule, reschedule or cancel an appointment in London.
I then checked the appointment page for June 2013 (drop-down box). As of right now, there are appointments available as follows:
14 for June 19
10 for June 20
18 for June 25
18 for June 26
No appointments available for May 2016 and no appointments yet opened up for July 2013.
That’s what I was told, and that’s what I did. I must check out the website now. Were the dates given all for renunciation appointments? So you actually have a choice? And it would seem they are anticipating a large take-up; that’s odd, considering the DOS figures for about 1500 world-wide each year. Hmmm…
@Rev Susi,
No, not broken down into type of appointment — you just make an online appointment through “Notary Services” and that’s that, at least at many consulates. Since the London Embassy has sent the forms they want from you, you can have those all ready. They may or may not want them beforehand (varies by consulate / embassy). Perhaps, if I were you, I would make the appointment online, then correspond with them by email again, referring to your appointment date/time and asking if they want the forms faxed or pdf’d to them.
I renounced in Calgary; I did communicate with them by email and had sent in all of the required information (actually from a questionnaire that I have seen only that consulate send out). They had everything ready when I showed up for my appointment. I also had all 4079 and 4081 filled out (which was a good exercise just to know what they might ask you). They did not want to see any of that — they had everything ready to sign.
You can read experiences others have reported at Isaac Brock in the Consulate Report Directory (link in page http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/consulate2/), it should help prepare you for what to expect at your appointment. London experiences start on page 87 of that Directory.
PS — As you will read on other parts of Isaac Brock, the DOS figures for expatriations is not to be trusted — the FBI numbers for expatriations are much larger.
@ Calgary411
I revisited the Embassy website and found the page under Notary Services, but it seems to me that the service is provided for other things than expatriation. I also rechecked the info under loss of citizenship, where you’ll see there is absolutely no way to contact anybody to ask. They really don’t want to make it easy! Since I’ve already applied for an appointment, I don’t think I dare muddy the waters by making another one. I’ve learned to be fearful where American institutions are concerned. FBAR taught me that!
I’m beginning to think about future tax obligations and the 1040NR. I receive Social Security (taxed in the UK under totalisation agreement) and Civil Service Retirement. All the rest of my income is non-US. Do I have to continue filing and taking a tax credit for this income after expatriation? It is deposited in the UK, but they could withhold, I suppose. As is, nothing is withheld. Other than that I have no US income.
@ Rev Susi,
No, you won’t find ‘expatriation’ listed (who knows — they might not want the unknowing US citizen to think they could even do that!), but Notary Services is where you should go, I think (same format for other consulates / embassies as London). If I were you I would make an appointment, clicking on the link at the bottom of that page. It will take you to the appointment calendar — June will show appointments available. Click on the date you want, make the appointment, then email them again, referring to your appointment date / time and questions you want to ask about the forms you have. Worth a try — the online appointment through Notary Services is the way it is done at other consulates. That all don’t have the same procedure is troubling, but that is what it is.
Or, wait for your requested appointment through them.
Your US social security should be reported on your UK tax returns, as I presume your Civil Service Retirement would be. After renunciation (and you do know the difference between relinquishment and renunciation and have determined you must renounce?), you will not be a US citizen and will not file US tax returns. Saying that, you will have to file the last year up to the day before your renunciation — and at the same time sign out of the US tax system by filing Form 8854 with the 1040. And, you will also have to file your last FBAR return as well. Check with the UK tax authority website — it should explain how US social security is reported (as I know the Canadian CRA site does). Someone else may be able to answer better than I can on that aspect.
I hope that makes a little bit of sense. Ask any other questions you need to here and do research the Consulate Report Directory and the resources and posts we have here for lots of relevant information — read, read, read. I don’t know where you are in your knowledge about all this, but this is a good site to ask questions from people who have been through it.
@ Rev Susi and Calgary,
That does sounds odd that London would only be doing expatriations one day per month. London does all expatriations for England and Wales, so I don’t see how they can do expatriation appts only one day a month with a cachement area of their size and keep up with it (unless they assembly-line like 100 that one day a month?) At any rate, booking-to-meeting delay, so far, has not been unduly lengthy at London.
London is considered to be a pretty efficient consulate. In fact, when 2 meetings for renunciation was still the norm, they switched from 2 meetings to 1 phone call “meeting” and 1 real meeting.
They may have cut out the 1st “meeting” entirely recently. Apparently they’re sending out a pre-relinquishment questionnaire (somebody sent me one) and in the last question on it, they ask if you wish to speak to a consular official for more information (by phone or in person), with its wording implying that unless you opt to do this, there will be no “1st meeting,” just the “final” one. That’s my read, dunno for sure, of course.
Anyway although London seems to pretty good to expatriate at, nevertheless the procedure can be confusing. It’s not clear on their website (or that of most consulates either). It would also help if it was more uniform at all consulates.
Yes, a lot of us have noticed that. The 4079 is used both for people terminating citizenship and people trying to claim US citizenship, which makes some questions confusing right from the get-go. I wouldn’t worry about making a mistake, in the sense that they’re trying to trip you up — it’s just poorly written. BTW, everything we’ve heard about London is that they’re quite pleasant to deal with. CLNs seem to arrive pretty fast there too, the last two Brockers who reported got theirs in 1-2 months.