Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 2
US RELINQUISHMENT RENUNCIATION.m2
Above is a link to data we are compiling on Relinquishments and Renunciations — a work in progress.
(We are starting Part 2 as Part 1 has now over 1,000 comments.) Link to “Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 1”
This Relinquishment and Renunciation database corresponds with the Consulate Report Directory, which tracks individual experiences for each Consulate, along with a timeline chart.
Note: We are using numbers instead of blog names for this public posting so there will be no compromise of private information. Your facts will help give a snapshot of relinquishment and renunciation activity and where that occurs.
Please submit information in the comments below (or someone can contact you privately if you leave a message).
This database and the Consulate Report Directory have proven valuable resources for those new to the subject of relinquishment and renunciation. They can see numbers for and read others’ experiences of relinquishment or renunciation at various US consulates throughout the world — as reported by participants of the Isaac Brock site.
Thanks for your addition to the Relinquishment and Renunciation database. Your input will definitely help others.
@Calgary411
You meant the about page ? http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2011/12/14/about-the-isaac-brock-society/
I do not see it….
Sorry …I often miss these things
@Em
i have already half way made your decision…the part about never setting foot in america again! we already have change this years vacation plans to go to mexico rather than california with 10 other friends (none of the 12 of us are going to america this spring. that equates to about $10,000 that will not be spent in america by us.)
the part i am on pins and needles about is the day to banking and rrsp i have saved up. i know i don’t have enough money to pay a accountant to sort this mess out for me so i am doing the honey badger (or wolverine) thing and giving america the one finger salute and saying come find me if you can. i will fight my bank tooth and nail on my citzenship as my canadian certificate of citzenship says i am a canadian. (i am also hoping that my gov’t supports me on this and does not trample my rights as a canadian citizen)
perhaps not the best way to handle things but given the other option of pan handleing to pay my accountant and living in a walmart parking lot it just seems better to know i went down swinging than being led to slaughter. but that’s just me and i totaly understand and accept that everyone one of us in this situation has to make the decision as to what to do based on their own unique situations.
i wish everybody the best of luck whatever your decision is.
@ Medea Fleecestealer
Yes I can manage — unless the New World Order imposes a cashless society. I’ll gamble on that happening not at all or after I die. I do realize that most people cannot. I do not use a credit card or debit card. I do not have a salary. I care not for the pittance of interest the banks are offering these days. I am prepared to give up my meagre CPP/OAS (Canada will soon not be issuing cheques, bank deposit only). Every bill I receive can be paid in cash (or I can assign that duty to my all-compliant, soon to be non-American husband). I’m old enough now that I just keep telling myself that I don’t have to live long; I just have to live valiantly. I will not feed the beast. I am Canadian, period, and I do not accept any other country’s label of “personhood”.
@ All
Sorry to kick up a $**tstorm today. I’m just fed up with being fed up. Carry on complying. It’s probably the sane thing to do.
@ Very Confused,
Northern Star is giving very good advice.
First off, don’t do anything in haste.
Can you attend one of the Info Sessions that are the subject of the top post on the front page of the site?
It might not be necessary to consult a lawyer. It usually is not. In any event, I would lean towards acquiring a certain level of information before consulting a lawyer. You certainly don’t need to know the subject like an expert – but in this niche area of law, you should know enough to know the person you’re speaking with actually knows the subject. (Even one of the consulates was giving out patently inaccurate information about relinquishment some time ago.) So, it’s a really good idea to have at least a general basic knowledge prior to choosing a professional, if one decides to go that route.
When you decide to take action, depending which consulate you use, you can get at appt in as early as a month, though some have longer wait times. So, it’s not a big rush that you have to resolve this week, so you can book an appointment right away – I’d definitely try to go to an Info Session, if possible.
@ Very Confused,
Re: Does this mean I should get my taxes in order or just wait until I meet with consulate?
It’s still not 100% clear that you didn’t perform a relinquishing act. I’m wondering also about sections 2, 3, and 4.
At any rate, whether relinquishing or renouncing, it is not necessary to be up to date with taxes prior to meeting at the consulate. The Consulate/Dept of State does not care if you are or not. They deal only with the citizenship itself. Citizenship status is not dependent on tax status.
A person has until June 15th of the year following their signing the papers at the consulate to wrap things up with IRS. So, if a person renounces in 2014, they have until June 15th, 2015. By that date, they are supposed to have filed the exit tax form and the tax forms for 5 years prior to renunciation (2009-13) and a tax form for the partial year January 1st to the day before they renounced in 2014. One has to certify on the exit tax form that one filed the 5 prior years.
However, according to the Dept of State Foreign Affairs Manual, 7 FAM 1240, DOS is supposed to send IRS a copy of each CLN they issue. I’ve no clue if IRS follows up on these CLNs or not, perhaps depends if the fruit is low-hanging or high-hanging, if the person is in the system or not, but I don’t know. Different people make different decisions about what they are going to do based on their own circumstances and risk tolerance — it’s important to read up and think about it and make the decision that you feel most comfortable with.
Whether or not the person files with IRS, the citizenship itself remains terminated and the CLN remains in effect.
Em,
I agree — I want the days that we have left to live to be without this distraction. I want to again be a part of my community, a part of my family, a contributor to the country I live in. I want a sense of joy back in my life — to have valuable relationships with other people. This is all, frankly, bullshit.
mettleman,
That’s the way I’m going out too. I am now KEEPING IT LOUD. I’ve jumped off the dock into too deep water with both feet. I’ve already been somewhat (but not as much as others) slaughtered; I won’t allow that for my son if there is any way in my power.
May all the gods there are anywhere help us all.
@pacifica777
I would love to come to info session but I’m 3 hours away and have an infant.
Trust me, I have familiarized myself with this topic for a week now. The more I read, the more confused I feel. I thought I “got it” yesterday and then I learnt new information and feel more frustrated than ever.
@ Rev. Susi,
Yes, this question has come up from time to time. It’s okay to recommend an accountant/lawyer that you’ve used. Feel free to say “John Smith did my taxes and I was very satisfied” or whatever.
We don’t allow advertising, and the Brock community as a whole does not endorse anybody. But a recommendation from an individual is definitely useful to other Brockers in their area or with a similar tax or legal situation. Thanks for doing so.
Of course, if anyone would like to communicate privately with another Brocker, just post that you would like one of the administrators to forward your e-mail address to so-and-so, and we’ll do that.
No, northernstar, I mean the home page: isaacbrocksociety.ca, which will likely be the page anyone would most often get to when first looking for our site. Click on that link; is that relevant post at the very top?
Very confused,
Keep reading; keep asking your questions. We know your frustration. We’ll try to walk you through some of that but you really do need to do some very thorough research of your own, starting here at our site which has so many good resources. Don’t try second guessing yourself until you’ve really read and read. Write your questions down as you read, but keep reading. Some of it will better make sense as you do (as much as it can). For what remains, contact us. Just know that answering each of your specific questions might be like going to a law firm with our individual case — always keep in mind, we can’t and don’t want to provide that. Every single case is different; every single person’s level of risk is different.
All posters and commenters here are volunteers for this effort. I wish you could attend an information session as you would be able to get a wider view of issues, but that is not always possible, as in your case. Trying to arrange these sessions in the bigger centres and hoping others will be find a way to get there is the best we can do right now. A lot of generous work going into these by those setting up, advertising, etc. We are all just like you, and we’re trying to help one another.
One of our resource people, Just Me, calls what we each need to do at the start of our journey with this our drudge work.
@calgary411
now I see it.
@Calgary411
and @Em
I am in agreement…I thought I would be able to be a snowbird and spend time in Florida. I rented a fantastic condo for 2 winters and then when FATCA surfaced it was the last time I went to the states.
I had a chance to buy property property there but turned it down. FATCA was the big shadow .
I will not go lightly and like a lamb for FATCA.
Depending on the weather. I just may go to the info meeting..
Do you agree that it’s location is where it is easily accessible?
@Calgary411
a first timer looking on google will find it just typing in Isaac Brock society. I just thought a sidebar click on would be good .
Here’s another good post for you, Very Confused (and others), from Maple Sandbox: http://maplesandbox.ca/2014/have-you-just-learned-that-the-united-states-considers-you-a-us-person/.
@calgary411
Thanks for the link! I have read this and it’s very useful.
I’m tired of wasting all my energy worrying about what’s going to happen.
I will probably never fully understand FATCA, American tax and citizenship systems. So I’ve done everything I can do. Now it’s time to wait for a US consulate to write me back. Either way, I’m ditching my US citizenship and I won’t be going back to that country for a long time. I feel so betrayed and played by their systems. I will not be paying any kind of taxes until I get a knock on my front door by the IRS because this is all bullshit. Some people say DONT contact IRS because it could jeopardize your ability to relinquish or renounce; and then you hear about all the threats from FATCA. I feel like I’m damned if I do and damned if I don’t. I have never even had a parking ticket in Canada so to say I’m a “delinquent tax payer” is so hypocritical when I have never been informed. Sorry about my rant but NOBODY around me understands and don’t even believe me when I explain what’s going on.
WE believe you, Very confused. We know others don’t. That is actually a parallel purpose to all the information resources you will find here — that needed support when you are not believed. Go ahead and rant; it is all absurd and so unjust — yes, BS.
While you’re waiting for the Consulate to write you back (did you send an email, which Consulate?), please do all the reading you can. The more informed you are, the more reasoned you will be and better able to fend off bad advice you might get. We are damned if we do and damned if we don’t — that’s just the way the US wants it, don’t you think?
One of the most positive things you can do, and it may help you to know you are taking some action, is to contact your MP and other government representatives about your outrage that the Canadian government might soon sign an IGA with the US to waive you and our rights under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. We must try to have a voice — for ourselves and others.
@calgary411
I emailed both Toronto and Ottawa offices on the weekend. I believe I can go to Toronto to relinquish and Ottawa if I have to renounce. I found the email on the US consulate page for canada. I was told that I could also make an appointment with a consulate online, which I found but not sure if I can for this particular goal.
I feel like I have a good grasp of my situation and what I have to do. The only thing I’m worried about is that I performed my expatriating act at the age of 16 (applied for Canadian citizenship). Also, I guess because both my parents are Canadian, I didn’t even need this citizenship.
Well, I’m also horrified of the IRS. Accountants have told me to liquidate my savings, something I can’t do because of high penalties. They also told me to take my name off my sons RESP. I almost filed taxes but I want to see if I can relinquish first. I do not have 50,000$ So hopefully my bank won’t rat me out for being American. I may have some American investments which I will certainly close this week.
I guess if worse comes to worse, I can renounce and pay someone to do 5 years of taxes. A lawyer friend who is a dual citizen said that he never owes anything because Canadian taxes are much higher and because of our tax treaty.
And all of this because I was given misinformation as a child.
All of this because the US is exceptional. There is no way you and so many others should be considered US citizens. Believe me, your parents did not know either; there is no way they could have anticipated this would happen to you!
The RESP that you have for your child is, unbelievably, considered a “foreign trust” in US eyes and that means extra forms 3520 / 3520A. Yes, there is a Canada / US tax treaty that covers off most taxes owed, but certainly not all though. It is NOT about taxes owed. It IS about the cost of administration for compliance of US tax returns and Foreign Bank Account Reports (FBARs) (do you know about them?) year after year after bloody year. It is about all the other eventualities that may happen if the Government of Canada signs an IGA with the US and our banks become arms of the IRS, searching for US Persons. Every time I say that, my level of anger rises.
I think you can make online appointments for both Toronto and Ottawa (for Calgary you can’t — so more inconsistency. If you go to the Consulate Directory Report on the side bar (or http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/consulate2/). There you will find reports of others’ experiences at various consulates / embassy for both renunciations and relinquishments. Those who went to the Toronto Consulate gave pretty consistent good reports of their experiences; not so for Ottawa, but I “hear” that has improved. Both the Ottawa Embassy and the Toronto Consulate will process relinquishments as well as renunciations, but the experience may be easier for both in Toronto. Read the experiences; they are VERY helpful.
There is no need to have tax returns completed before renunciation — and you must not have them if you are going to try to claim relinquishment. Good luck with it all. Please stay in touch and let us know how things are going — or ask any other questions that come up for you. We’re here to help as much as we can.
@Calgary411
Thanks for your input. Glad to know I can go to Toronto for both because I live 7 hours from Ottawa.
I guess it will be cash savings until I can get this figured out haha. Can they go after my husband’s investments if my name is not on them?
@Calgary411
Sorry, could you post the link you are referring to with people’s experiences at consulate. I am having trouble finding it. Thanks!
@calgary411 you did a great job with the cbc and are putting up a great fight here as well.
i think there are going to be more and more of people like us that are not going to take this lying down as more and more people have their “OMG” moment.
i amongst many other things have a hard time reconciling the fact that i was susposed to file taxes ever since i left the states in 1988. i have crossed the border many many time and this fact was never pointed out to me.
for a country to do this to its citizens under the assumption that “they are susposed to know” is just wrong. speeding, drinking and driving, stealing, assualt are the things “you are susposed to know” but filing out tax forms for a country you have no intention of living or working in just does not fall into the “you are susposed to know” catagory…. or at least for me it does not….
keep on the fighting the fight and like Very confused said above ” I will not be paying any kind of taxes until I get a knock on my front door by the IRS ” we have to stick to our guns on this one
There is a link (click here) within this link, http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/consulate2/. Here it is in pdf: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Consulate-Report-Directory-2013.12.21.g.pdf, such an excellent resource for anyone contemplating their own journey into the unknown.
Very confused,
I’m not the person to ask; I hope not. I think this is something people are doing — married couples should not HAVE to do this to protect what they have!