Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 2
US RELINQUISHMENT RENUNCIATION.m2
Above is a link to data we are compiling on Relinquishments and Renunciations — a work in progress.
(We are starting Part 2 as Part 1 has now over 1,000 comments.) Link to “Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 1”
This Relinquishment and Renunciation database corresponds with the Consulate Report Directory, which tracks individual experiences for each Consulate, along with a timeline chart.
Note: We are using numbers instead of blog names for this public posting so there will be no compromise of private information. Your facts will help give a snapshot of relinquishment and renunciation activity and where that occurs.
Please submit information in the comments below (or someone can contact you privately if you leave a message).
This database and the Consulate Report Directory have proven valuable resources for those new to the subject of relinquishment and renunciation. They can see numbers for and read others’ experiences of relinquishment or renunciation at various US consulates throughout the world — as reported by participants of the Isaac Brock site.
Thanks for your addition to the Relinquishment and Renunciation database. Your input will definitely help others.
@Tim, I’m really Sorry but was in a bit of a state and hadn’t asked anyone’s names, nor did I want to be forthcoming with mine. I do, however, remember Colleen and an older gentleman who is familiar with Just Me and a few successful opt out cases.
Another woman high up in ACA did in fact admit to me thst she has confirmed that the actual numbers renouncing are at least five times higher than the official numbers being given. She said to me that she could understand why I feel betrayed and like mere collateral damage….
They did indeed discuss at the meeting about how ironic it is that we suffer taxation without effective representation like the colonists indeed King George III.
I got the distinct impression that the vast majority attending were affluent and probably mostly wealthy enough that they’d still be ‘covered’ even if expatriating with full tax compliance. I got the impression that I was the most ordinary (least affluent) person there.
It reinforces my belief that a higher percentage of US Expats in Great Britain and especially London tend to be in high status careers and/or often rich. Many still work for American companies and are only here for several years….I believe a higher proportion in Canada or places like New Zealand would tend to be more ‘ordinary’ lower middle or even working class.
Even I came from a privileged upbringing though I broke away and married an ‘ordinary’ guy and work in a low status job. We have assets but would be probably economically ‘lower middle.’ An uncle and both my grandfathers though we’re a pretty big deal in Washington thirty to sixty years ago.
My parents become more ‘middle middle’, with me just ‘lower middle.’ But had my uncle still been alive, he would have been just like the affluent attendees there!
I was actually surprised not to see any Brockers there, though I believe there is much less of a pushback here than in Canada, both because of the higher percentage of wealthier Expats plus the obvious fact that the UK was the first to actually agree to an IGA.
At least one glimmer of hope: someone there suggests that the UK can have an art of APPEARING to initially fully coooperate but could, in fact, pleasantly surprise us by being deliberately obtuse about fully enacting FATCA; examples might include banks giving out TOO much information in such a way as to make it difficult for the IRS to interpret the data.
They might also be obstructionist if, for example, the IRS tried to pursue an Expat through the British courts if they wound up facing a judge who disapproved of US imposing extraterritorial taxation. I seem to recall how a vulnerable, Aspergec Brit was protected from being extradited for supposedly hacking the Pentagon, for instance.
However, It does seem as though the prime minister is behaving like a poodle, oerhaps to help preserve the ‘special relationship’. It could, however, just be astute diplomacy…I believe that agreeing to an IGA has at least made it easier for many Expats to maintain financial accounts here, for instance; also increase the chances that the IRS will want to avoid a diplomatic incident by going after lots here, including Boris Johnson!
Many politicos including John Major, Tony Benn’s American wife, plus even the likes of Ruby Wax and perhaps even the Beckhams could well still have strong US connections….plus, I still believe that if they really attacked large numbers of Expats, that there would in fact be widespread rage expressed in the media.
At this stage, this hasn’t happened yet; it’s more a case of us minnows being made collateral damage by the inevitably collaberative compliance industry. I chatted with the same well-known ACCOUNTANT who showed up at our meeting in London back in July, but saw no one else there who’d attendended our meeting. Sorry, but can’t recall his name; though Renounce Citizenship Now thinks highly of him.
This accountant obviously deals with wealthier clients and has admitted to me that he feels quite optimistic that most of us should face no reprisals if we become fully compliant and even renounce…that to their knowledge, no FBAR fines or nasty auditsvhave been imposed on minnows making quiet disclosures whilst living abroad; though both he and one of the ACA organizers, who are both very familiar with Isaac Brock believe that people who are openly and defiantly protesting could be raising the risks of becoming marked targets.
I believe now that my biggest fear going forward (after filing my final paperwork next summer) will be whether the Reed Act is enforced or an Expatriat Act is passed, making future visits more difficult.
I also got the impression that those of us who attended the July meeting were generally more ‘ordinary’.
Will be fascinating to see how things transpire over the next few years.
I’m hoping that Canada will, being in the front lines, push back enough to stop FATCA.
@monalisa1776, I wouldn’t count on the UK doing that much. Yes, eventually, they blocked the extradition, but it was a 10 year private court battle before that and he lost all his appeals against the initial ruling that he should be extradited, including an appeal at the Court of Human Rights. It was only because of a judicial review of the medical evidence that Teresa May finally decided he was at a high risk of committing suicide and blocked the extradition. It was also eventually decided that he couldn’t be tried in a British court for the alleged offences because all the evidence was in the US. Plus that was a case of hacking into the US secruity systems, a much more serious crime than the US tax evasion issue as far as the Brits are concerned.
But I think the accountant is right, FATCA was really designed to go after the big fish and the rest of us are just collateral damage in the tax evasion war. If we ‘fess up and become compliant, have no real money to speak of, then I doubt they’re going to bother.
@monalisa 1776
Thanks for such a good report of your meeting. I hope next year you can have this akl behind you.
@Thanks so much, Nothernstar!! I really appreciate all the support and empathy I’ve found on here…
Lea alerted me to this…
The ICIJ, International Consortium of Investigative Journalist is trying to understand
THE MYSTERY OF THE FLEEING AMERICANS
Maybe those of you who do Facebook can help enlightened them..
Here was what I posted until the facebook block stopped me..
It is not a mystery. Summed up simply. FATCA HAS created awareness Amongst ordinary average Americans Have you are living abroad of the penalty and cost implications of Citizenship Taxation. Many-have done the cost vs benefit analyst and find the scales tipped Towards giving up membership in the U.S. single “Tax, Form and Penalty club.” The benefits out weigh the skirt no costs of compliance and risk penalty for failure.
I emailed the following
your article is pure BS
I am a Vietnam era veteran, former USAF captain
line #2543 of your spreadsheet
currently retired and living in Canada since 1975.
you should visit the isaacbrocksociety.ca website
to learn about the truly typical people that are expatriating
@Just Me.
This is the 3rd post that I see your link to THE MYSTERY OF FLEEING AMERICANS
Well, as I wrote on gmail to her contact IBS and Maple Sandbox and WE ARE NOT A MYTH to find out the truth, we are not fat cat rich tax evader.
I am glad we all are going to let her know this.
@Patricia. Glad you wrote her.
It’s in the IRS’s best interest to portray us as fat cat tax evaders, it helps their never ending crusade against expats. If actual numbers are 4-5x higher than reported, maybe using legal channels to divulge the real numbers are necessary? I’m just glad I got my relinquishment in before to flood. So many of the 7 million are oblivious and sure to be close behind me once they wake up.
@Northernlights…
Yea, I got carried away posting that on 3 different threads, but as I have come to see various folks follow various threads, and I wanted as many as possible to see the opportunity to education an journalist who claims to want to understand the mystery…
@Just Me
Glad you posted it. and there are so many new posts here it was a good idea to do it. I wrote her personally and I gather some other brokers did…Hope she does look at Brock and Maple Sandboz and We are a not a Myth. She may actually write a good article, a truthful one. PS: I am northernstar but I thought of northernlights for a name too. I saw them twice in my life…pretty awesome to see.
@northernstarlights…
Sorry I got your alias wrong. My wife was pushing me out the door to go to dinner with friends and I wanted to quickly reply and I knew it was northern something and coming from Alaska I just instinctively said northernlights.. 🙂
Uh oh, is this the FATCA satellite? http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2013/12/05/u-s-spy-rocket-launching-today-has-octopus-themed-nothing-is-beyond-our-reach-logo-seriously/?utm_source=loopinsight.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=Feed
@pukekonz
Are these guys tone deaf, or is it just hubris? The latter, I think.
Calgary Relinquishment:
Request – May 25/12
1st Appointment – June 21/12
2nd Appointment – None
CLN Received – Dec. 11/13
CLN Date – Dec. 12/94
I was born in the US to Canadian parents, and registered as a Canadian Birth Abroad. At age 6 my family moved back to Canada, where I have lived since then. I have never had a Social Security number nor a US passport. I knew growing up that I was a dual citizen, but thought I had given up US citizenship at age 21 when I voted in my first national election. Many years later the US border officials started to press the point that I was still considered an American, and in 2011 when Canadians were being scared into filing US returns, I knew that I needed to carefully consider my options and move towards expatriation.
I have been lurking on IBS since its inception (and before that on the Expat Forum), spending hundreds of hours becoming familiar with the issues, and filling a binder with printouts of articles and comments I felt were pertinent to me. And, thanks to the information found on this site, I had courage to arrange a one-day trip from Winnipeg to Calgary in June of 2012, to document my voluntary relinquishment. I had a fairly weak case, citing only voting in my first national Canadian election in 1972 (which was an expatriating act until 1978 and ex post facto laws being unconstitutional), and accepting a government job in 1994 (administrative secretary in a local hospital). My experience in Calgary was consistent with reports from others, except for the clear message from the Consul that he would NOT be recommending my application, and that I should just renounce and be done with it. I chose to stand firm, as I knew what would be required of me if I obtained a current-dated CLN. It took almost 18 months from my appointment to receive the coveted CLN, and only after I made inquiry at the 12-month point and then being asked if I had signed an oath of allegiance when I accepted my government job. I could only locate a confidentiality agreement sample of what I may have signed. My documents obviously sat on a pending pile for many months, as I was a rather unusual case, and I think they finally signed just to get rid of me.
So, there are two myths seemingly disproven in my case:
– that dual citizens MUST renounce, as relinquishment is not an option
– that if the Consul advises that he cannot recommend an applicant for CLN, that Washington never overturns that directive.
I am so pleased and relieved to finally have resolved the nightmare that has been a major part of daily life for the last few years. And, as good fortune would have it, I can also say that I relinquished before February 6, 1995, the icing on the cake!
Thanks to each of the regular IBS contributors! There are likely many of us minnows hiding in the weeds, but taking in all the information we can find on FATCA and expatriation issues. This site has been my best resource all along, and I am eternally grateful!
Wow, prairiegirl.
and,
Thanks so much for reporting some sanity and congratulations for your not backing down to renounce instead of claim your relinquishment by having voted in your first national Canadian election in 1972 (which was an expatriating act until 1978 and ex post facto laws being unconstitutional), and accepting a government job in 1994 (administrative secretary in a local hospital). You did thorough research here and then stood up for yourself!
Why can there not be a same result for so many innocent “Accidental Americans”? It is all so punitive, this criminalization of deemed ‘US Persons’ in Canada and around the world. Set us free from this insanity.
We appreciate your acknowledgement of Isaac Brock being your best resource. Be assured that your report will help others in their decisions.
Best to all of you who gather information here!!
@prariegirl
Fantanstic. You news gave a great feeling to start mynday. First that you got your CLN and that you were on IBS getting all the research information you needed. There are probably others doing this too. This is great news Prairiegirl. I am happy for you. May you have a very happy Holiday. You have given inspiration to many.
@prairiegirl –
Thanks for posting this – it tends to back up my armchair-lawyer idea that the statement of allegiance in a Canadian passport application should be expatriating if you want it to be, so long as you haven’t done anything implying a claim to US citizenship in the meantime.
@Prairie Girl,
Congratulations — and Brava! I really admire you really sticking it out against opposition and making them apply the law correctly! Thanks so much for sharing for your story – this is big and will surely help other reqlinquishers who were born dual. Also in a broader sense it will help all realise it is not necessary to cave in if they have a sound legal basis to believe they had relinquished. Good job doing all the research and not backing down! These past two years had to have been a nightmare. I am really glad it’s over for you!
Calling KalC
Just calling to see if you are around?
You may be one of the few that believe beat the system is the best approach. My guess you have a buisness background as well and you are realistic. I just hope the IRS will never become efficient.
The Republican will not repeal, the Canadian government is under enormous pressure to sign IGA, I believe both Liberals and NDP will sign IGA, if they were in power. Cutting off Canada from USA credit market would be terrible for our economy, The supreme courts may block IGA but I do not think it is a slam dunk, I come over to the website, for hard info but there is really not a lot.
Here is a point on RRSP included in total
http://www.cucentral.ca/Connections/Connections%20FATCA%20July%202013%20FINAL.pdf
Moderate levels of reporting if at least 98 per cent of accounts (dollars, not by number of accounts) are held by residents of Canada. Please note that this test is not about identifying American taxpayers–it simply calculates accounts held by all residents of Canada (including Americans resident here) vs. members who are non-resident of Canada. As credit unions already track resident vs. non-resident status of accounts for purposes of reporting to CRA interest and dividends on a T5 (to residents) vs. NR4 (to non-residents), this may be a relatively straight-forward exercise. All accounts should be included in this test, even accounts that may be FATCA-exempt such as RRSPs and RRIFs and those accounts with balances less than $50,000.
I renounced at the Halifax Consulate yesterday. Everything went smoothly, and I felt a great sense of relief after it was over. I realize now that the act was one of confirmation of my Canadian Identity rather than the loss of American Citizenship.
I came to Canada in 1972 to attend Dalhousie University, and was lucky to get into Dal Med school after finishing my undergraduate degree. Since finishing postgrad training, I have practiced Family Medicine in small town Nova Scotia. My wife ( British and Canadian) teaches at a Halifax University. We consider ourselves very fortunate both in work and life.
Our lives were disrupted in the Summer of 2011 when I found out about my “filing obligations” to the U.S.
I hired a U.S. based lawyer who was basically stonewalled by his usual contacts at the IRS. He called their behavior “Kafka-esque”.
I entered OVDI because at that time I felt there was little choice. I do not regret doing this as I have slept pretty well over the last 2.5 years. I have yet to hear anything from the IRS.
I don’t really expect any serious trouble from the IRS, and FATCA will not impact me personally. What really irked me was the absurdity of filing 90 pages yearly just to prove to the IRS that I don’t owe tax, and never will. I was also incensed by the audacity of a law that required me to report on my entirely Canadian assets to what I regard as the agency of a foreign power. For those reasons I decided to renounce.
The Consulate staff in Halifax were very helpful. They knew I was keen to renounce before the end of the year to avoid having to file again for 2014. They basically contacted me the day before with a cancellation. I jumped at the chance to end this madness.
Prior to my appointment, they required me to complete forms 4079, 4080, and 4081 and email them back. I did this carefully, and I think that made the actual appointment very easy. Form 4079 isn’t strictly required for a renunciation, but it gives you the opportunity to make your case before you show up.
While I was waiting for the Consular Officer, a young couple entered with a set of twin babies. It was clear they were there to report the birth of their children in Canada. I struggled to keep quiet and hope those “accidental Americans” reverse their parent’s mistake before they’re too old to change their status easily.
The Consular Officer was a pleasant young man who looked more like a Frat boy from Animal House than a government bureaucrat. He processed my renunciation smoothly, and promised a CLN in about 4 months. I left quickly, and met my wife to celebrate my freedom.
@Titus
What wonderful news that you sucessfully renounced. Thank you for letting us all know the details. I hope you are relaxing now . Did they say how long your CLN will take to come in?
It would be interesting to hear more about your OVDI experience. As a physician, presumably with a RRSP, and so on, they could say that you owed a bundle. Maybe you will never hear from them. OVDI was never meant for people such as you.
northernstar,
From Titus’ comment:”
Hope the prediction is more or less accurate.
Congratulations and best wishes, Titus.
@Calgary411
Thanks for a heads up ..I do tend to read too fast and miss things.
Duke of Devon
RRSP’s were considered part of the penalty base and had to be reported. The IRS released some “clarification” in the June, 2012, I believe in the form of FAQ’s. They implied that one could apply for a “letter ruling” which, if granted, would take them out of the penalty base.
Of course this is all theoretical as my file hasn’t been reviewed yet. I do expect to hear from them, and probably should refrain from further comment until I do.