Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 2
US RELINQUISHMENT RENUNCIATION.m2
Above is a link to data we are compiling on Relinquishments and Renunciations — a work in progress.
(We are starting Part 2 as Part 1 has now over 1,000 comments.) Link to “Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 1”
This Relinquishment and Renunciation database corresponds with the Consulate Report Directory, which tracks individual experiences for each Consulate, along with a timeline chart.
Note: We are using numbers instead of blog names for this public posting so there will be no compromise of private information. Your facts will help give a snapshot of relinquishment and renunciation activity and where that occurs.
Please submit information in the comments below (or someone can contact you privately if you leave a message).
This database and the Consulate Report Directory have proven valuable resources for those new to the subject of relinquishment and renunciation. They can see numbers for and read others’ experiences of relinquishment or renunciation at various US consulates throughout the world — as reported by participants of the Isaac Brock site.
Thanks for your addition to the Relinquishment and Renunciation database. Your input will definitely help others.
jg151,
The distribution from your IRA will not be eligible for the FEIE, as it is not EARNED income. (I think!)
I guess my question can be phrased also this way. If my tax bracket is based on US$1,000 income, then it is in my interest to take a distribution in what will be the lowest tax bracket I will ever get!(after renunciation 30% without dual tax treaty)……. Not sure they would accept this?
jgl51,
I’m not sure. Wouldn’t your tax bracket still be based on $31,000, the passive income from distribution of your IRA + $1,000 Earned Income?
Over to someone with more knowledge than I have.
@To all, Will I still be able to claim the FEIE when I file my final dual status return and 8854 next year for 2013, as I renounced in early March; was wondering if I’d instead have to rely solely on foreign tax credits via Form 1116, or would my FEIE be prorated to about 20% for those first ten weeks I was paid as still a USC? Thanks if anyone can clarify.
monalisa1776, I claimd FEIE. However, I claimed it for the entire year while only reporting those months that I was a citizen, because I didn’t know better. Maybe you could claim 3 months of the FEIE? That would seem fair.
I also share Tdott’s question as to whether my personal exemption of $3900 would be prorated to the percentage of days as a USC. My impression is that one is still entitled to the full exemption as they can’t claim the $6000 standard deduction.
The weird thing about working in the UK is that, because our UK personal allowance is much more generous at £9440 (roughly $14000) than even the combined standard deduction and personal exemption totaling roughly $10,000!! So even though overall taxation is higher in the UK than US, I am in an anamolous situation: as a part-time, low-paid worker I actually pay a lower percentage of income tax witholding than I would if I had to rely solely on ftc via 1116, especially as foreign tax credits are forced into earned vs passive brackets!
Looks we all need to find a good and knowledgeable accountant!! I am having nightmares. Not only you have to file an enormous amount of forms but it is absolutely incomprehensible!!
@Swisspinoy, Thanks for you response. Actually, it wouldn’t be a problem if I could only claim it pro estate since at close to $19,000, it would still be way above the approximately $5000 I earned up through early March.
It might actually make more sense for my accountant just to use 1116 since my passive income was over the personal exemption amount, because I believe that if I use FEIE that I’d have to lower the percentage of FTCredit and thus still could wind up owing some double tax.
…which is why I wanted out, jgl51 — so as not to be punitively penalized, it is insanity the cost of US tax return and FBAR compliance because of the complexity, which is not the same experience as filing while living within the US. This then goes on year after year after year, for no or little tax owed. If you intend to go back to the US to live one day, I guess that is one reason (although just for US Persons outside of their homeland); for most of us here, that is not the case.
monalisa,
Your question would likely be best posed to the accountant who has been handling your tax affairs. Good luck if you do — and perhaps report here for others what that opinion is.
JG151, yes indeed, I have concluded that I will definitely still have to rely on my specialized accountant. Whatever happens, even in a worst case scenario, I shouldn’t wind up owing more than perhaps $400-$500 which is frankly not worth agonizing over, especially as it will be such a huge relief to be finally through next spring or early summer…plus, it’s peanuts compared to the roughly $50,000 I will have paid out in double taxes and professional fees….
Another reason I’ve concluded that my accountant’s expertise will be worth the high fees is because my understanding is that if I don’t file 8854 correctly, I could still suffer a de facto exit penalty tax on the value of my British pension fund….my understanding is that even though I’m worth well below two million, that if I can’t prove five years tax compliance via 8854 that the total value of my pension fund would thus be treated as though I’m received the full amount as untaxed, passive income!!! I would thus be looking at a total taxable gross income of approximately $75,000 and could thus wind up owing close to $20,000 in taxes even though I will have absolutely no access to this pension pot money….so many gotchas…
I thus think that paying my accountant up to $4000-6000 for my final year of filing is definitely worth it for a clean break and PEACE Of MIND.
But the system is rigged so we are forced to depend on expensive accountants and tax advisors…
Thanks, @Calgary! I will indeed share their opinion when the time comes. My only real criticisms of them is that they don’t seem to really want to succinctly clarify these questions, probably because it takes time and time is money; they also want me to stay dependant on them, lest I grow tempted to self-file for my final year.
I also agree that it’s getting to where maintaining US citizenship will only be affordable for the very wealthy. I recently attended the London ACA meeting and am now fully aware that US-compliant botique specialist investment firms are not interested in managing any portfolios worth less than at least one or two million dollars.
And as they pointed out, the ongoing proportional osts of compliance would negate most, if not all, investment gains for anyone with a portfolio worth less than a few million!!! It’s absolutely disgusting.
And, of course, the speakers there we’re from the compliance industry and naturally said that FATCA was inevitable….
Several Americans there we’re experiencing their OMG moments right there in that conference room with many literally screaming and f-ng and blinding!! I did mention Isaac Brock to several but felt safer keeping a low profile and mainly listening…
What was interesting though was how the organizers from ACA told me that they are well aware of Isaac Brock but that they are concerned and evidently aware that the IRS is indeed closely monitoring the site. They advised me that most of us are not ‘big enough’ for the IRS to be seriously interested though that they could perceive some of the more outspoken ones here as tax protestors and potentially extreme activists against the US govt…
Another thing that struck me as odd is how literally no one at the meeting felt comfortable nor expressed any desire to even consider expatriation…they strike me as an organization who, while indeed eager for tax reform and better treatment of Expats, nevertheless want to work within the system rather than leave. They seemed to consider my decision extreme!!
It was quite an eye opener.
@mona lisa1776
“What was interesting though was how the organizers from ACA told me that they are well aware of Isaac Brock but that they are concerned and evidently aware that the IRS is indeed closely monitoring the site. They advised me that most of us are not ‘big enough’ for the IRS to be seriously interested though that they could perceive some of the more outspoken ones here as tax protestors and potentially extreme activists against the US govt…
That concerns me. I am not a violent person but I guess I could be considered an activists.
It is very scary. and I guess that is why people are laying low.
Thanks for your interesting account of the London ACA meeting you attended, monalisa. How awful for some to have to have their OMG moments at that meeting. How many times does that happen at gatherings such as that? That ACA group sounds similar to the Democrats Abroad and Republicans Abroad meetings and I understand some of those members wil return at some point to the US. That does make a difference in their mindset, but they too are being exploited by US citizenship-based taxation.
ACA’s US government lobbying was, unintentionally, the reason for so many being reinstated back into US citizenship without their knowledge. I would so like them to ALSO work for the concept of those born outside the US or the accidentals born in the US but did not live there; i.e. not their real country, to have choice, an “opt-in” to US citizenship from whatever circumstance of birth gives them that right, not an “opt out.” As we can see, in so many instances, it does not make sense. Life isn’t fair but this absurdity, collateral damage just affects too many innocent families living outside of the “homeland.”
That the US IRS is closely monitoring this site and the US finds it acceptable to squelch my — and your — free speech in our fight against US oppression is, frankly, very offensive to me!
I’m glad you attended, give us your views and had your eyes open — further.
(Hope you are doing well!)
@monalisa1776, I’ve always viewed it this way and calculated in the possiblity that my opinions could be misinterpreted. It is not uncommon for the US government to misinterpret constructive criticism. Yet, running, hiding or doing nothing doesn’t help anyone.
Thank-you, @Northern star and @Calgary!
Yes, it was indeed an eye-opener. I think back to the McCarthy era. I admire those of you who have come out of the closet and revealed your full indentities and those openly protesting. However, I am a coward. I am frankly far too scared to openly criticise the US government, especially as I will continue to have to regularly travel there for family. And as mad as it sounds, I wouldn’t want any reprisals on my US-based family either, as far-fetched as that sounds.
I actually no longer feel so afraid of the IRS itself because I have FULLY cooperated into getting back into FULL compliance as well as paid back everything I wound up owing. I openly am resigned to the fact that the Law is the Law and that I have to follow all the tax rules, in spite of its unfairness. I will fully cooperate with any potential investigation even if it bankrupts me because that was how I was raised: to be a good citizen and LAW-ABIDING and HONEST.
However, I saw an opportunity for self-preservation, which I legally and fully compliantly took. I also would not have expatriated if it would have made my family feel dishonoured because I’m just old-fashioned and dutiful that way. Thankfully, they (while obviously not happy) at least understood.
I believe that the IRS in fact already quietly know about many of us, even those who have remained behind aliases because of the NSA’s abilities of extensive surveillance. I am 90% certain that they already know about my case but feel that as I have been so forthcoming and honest with my good-faith disclosures, that they will hopefully have taken the Nina Olsen compassionate attitude and realised that I genuinely had been completely unaware of all the Compliance complexities, and that would have used a certified financial planner and specialized tax adviser and accountant from day one, had I known! So any nasty aufor would be, to my mind, an act of reprisal.
I still have six more years of open statutes of limitations when I do my final filing next year…so won’t be able to fully relax till sometime in late 2020, probably… however, I am increasingly optimistic that things will continue to go smoothly. I don’t always like the law and the system but will always comply as well as be respectful towards any US official.
I still dread going through passport entry during my US visit early next year and pray I’m not interrogated… I also pray that I won’t face further tax problems from IRS if I come into a potentially substantial US-sourced inheritance in, say, fifteen years…I could see that inheriting a share of US property could once again pose problems and would imagine that I might have to file a 1040-NR at that time and possibly pay some inheritance taxes, especially if Congress passes further punitive taxes and penalties against renunciants, which is a possibility.
I do know that some states have not only an estate tax against the estate itself but also inheritance taxes for the recipients of inheritances…thus, while I don’t believe I’d have to worry about estate taxes, I imagine that I could in theory face some inheritance taxes from the state my parents’ estates are located in.
It night also become much more difficult to remit a large US-sourced inheritance from a US brokerage portfolio either because the UK might in future tax the remittance as a form of income; the US might also impose future capital controls so the investments might thus wind up being effectively stuck in America and thus under direct US tax law jurisdiction…
I suppose though that I made my decision based on what seemed the best way out of this complicated mess at the time. We simply can’t predict the future…I have thus concluded that I am FAR wiser NOT to count on or assume any future family inheritance.
Hope all had a Happy Thanksgiving all the same…I will always still remain an All American girl at heart. ;’) I, like Crystal London, will still always retain a wistful affection for the ‘good old USA’s and deeply mourn my loss of birthright.
I DID mention at the ACA meeting how, in the admittedly unlikely introduction of major tax reform for Expats that I sincerely hope the US government will one day offer to us an official apology and offer to restore our citizenships if we so choose; and though I’ve concluded that I’m better off not serving two masters that it would nonetheless be so nice if our expatriations we’re no longer deemed irrevocable and that things could be restored… let’s hope for major reform though have admittedly concluded that it’s probably not going to happen anytime soon. Sauve que peut.
@monalisa1776, well of course they have to. If they left, there’d be no reason for their existence. They are after all “AmericanCitizensAbroad – The Voice of Americans Overseas”. It doesn’t mean that they’re no less patriotic/idiotic than any other Americans who think the US is truly God’s gift to the world. That said, they are fighting to put the case for resident based taxation and their voice is one that will attract attention.
But they’re Americans first and foremost as their own website states:
“Our Board and Executive Committee are our two core teams of highly qualified individuals. They are all Americans committed to representing the concerns of other Americans abroad and aim to be “The Voice of Americans Overseas.”
Plus they’ve already got their US tax house in order:
“It is reorganizing as a US tax-exempt organization operating under section 501(c)(4) of the Internal Revenue Code. Alongside it is American Citizens Abroad Global Foundation, a publicly-supported charity under section 501(c)(3).”
http://americansabroad.org/about/
Finally, encouraging Americans to give up their citizenship due to the US Congress being so stupid wouldn’t help them bend the ears of said Congress when needed.
@Swisspinoy, of course I see your point. But I’m sure you can also see mine…but, by the way, I truly share your views as well as dismay of how your newborn will not be able to share in your almost 500 years of US heritage, but will at least not be tied to all the compliance headaches.
So true, @Mediafleecestealer! I suppose I will still always feel like an ‘American Abroad’ though. I still believe deep down that one day, there WILL be reform and that the USA will, by necessity in order to survive as a declining power, will have to evolve to a less arrogant position…Though things will get worse before they get better, they will eventually take a softer, more compassionate approach.
I believe there will come a day when there will be reform and where, in order to survive, and to foster good will, will invite us back or at least offer much more generous visas, residence/working permits, etc.
I will almost certainly choose to stay in England as an adopted Brit but it would still be good to be offered a sincere apology, pardon, and CHOICE to go back if we yearn to….there are admittedly still many people over there whom I still love and deeply care for.
@monalisa1776, I agree. There’ll always be a part of me that’s “American”, but it’s a part that existed many years ago and is very different from the America of today and the future. They are not the same and whether they decide to be generous to those of us who renounced/relinquished because of their actions doesn’t really matter to me. America isn’t a country I want to be a part of anymore and I don’t see it changing enough to make me want to in future. I’m quite happy to stay British to the end.
monalisa,
… Sorry, I would consider it an insult to be invited back, considering what the US has done to innocent families. These past couple of years have been hell for so many of us. I don’t want faux US “charity” or apology after they might smarten up and consider respecting other countries of the world. Too late. The US I grew up in is gone and so am I. My questions for my family’s protections are now to the country I’ve chosen, Canada.
I am considering renouncing in Halifax in the near future. I would like to read any accounts of experiences at this Consulate, but there are many posts in this thread.
Is it possible to send me a link to a few of these posts?
@jgl51 – if you’re going to be in Calgary we might have our appointments together! (Mine is first full week in January) I’m getting excited! Isaac Brock should sell t-shirts we can wear so we can identify each other…I met a fellow Brocker at a Moodys Tax seminar in Calgary, only because he walked around right after with an 8×10 piece of paper that said “Isaac Brocker?” Good luck and congratulations in advance.
@all thank you for your invaluable help and support. Keep it up! We need to stick together!
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/consulate2/ and click on the “Consulate Report Directory” link for reports of expatriation experiences, by Consulate. This is maintained by pacifica, from comments collected at this thread and others.
@Monalisa
If you don’t mind me asking who were the persons who attended the event from ACA. I know there was a public flyer linked below with the names of the different compliance lawyers but there were not any names directly associated with ACA other than Charles Bruce.
http://americansabroad.org/files/3113/8265/4470/flyer-london-nov-2013.pdf
I personally talk with several of the senior level officials from ACA as do Just Me, Roger Conklin, Blaze, Calgary411, Victoria and a few others I forgot from time to time. In all of my conversation with ACA’s management I have never heard any criticism of renunciation or relinquishment. I think most of the senior people involved in ACA know many people or have friends themselves who have already done so.
@Mona LIsa 1776
I realize I have beliefs that came from the TRUE Americans of the Revolutionary days, the Civil War, and Civil Rights days. I grew up loving US History, Geography and English Literature. I believed in FREEDOM and the rights set forth of the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and Lincoln’s Gettysburg address and Kennedy’s inauguration address. I believed that Obama was truly full of hope and full of change…Sadly the curtain for me has been lifted for all of those and revealed to not really what I was taught..
Those are the traits I miss of my America….they seem to have disappeared since 1980s , perhaps before that. in late 60s.
Tonight I read my new ebook.. FATCA AND THE NEW BIRTH OF THE AMERICAN EMPIRE. I am sure it will be fascinating. .