Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 2
US RELINQUISHMENT RENUNCIATION.m2
Above is a link to data we are compiling on Relinquishments and Renunciations — a work in progress.
(We are starting Part 2 as Part 1 has now over 1,000 comments.) Link to “Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 1”
This Relinquishment and Renunciation database corresponds with the Consulate Report Directory, which tracks individual experiences for each Consulate, along with a timeline chart.
Note: We are using numbers instead of blog names for this public posting so there will be no compromise of private information. Your facts will help give a snapshot of relinquishment and renunciation activity and where that occurs.
Please submit information in the comments below (or someone can contact you privately if you leave a message).
This database and the Consulate Report Directory have proven valuable resources for those new to the subject of relinquishment and renunciation. They can see numbers for and read others’ experiences of relinquishment or renunciation at various US consulates throughout the world — as reported by participants of the Isaac Brock site.
Thanks for your addition to the Relinquishment and Renunciation database. Your input will definitely help others.
@Mike, you noted some fees.
I was curious as to the relationship/comparison (if any can be made) between this matrix, and the current rates being charged to US persons ‘abroad’ for legal and accounting help with US tax compliance.
http://www.justice.gov/usao/dc/divisions/Laffey_Matrix_2003-2013.pdf
http://www.laffeymatrix.com/history.html
This post at the blog by USCitizenAbroad details some of this issue http://renounceuscitizenship.wordpress.com/2012/03/09/u-s-tax-compliance-the-costs-of-compliance-the-costs-of-non-compliance-and-how-to-choose-a-lawyer/
A while back, here in Canada, ‘junior’ lawyers, with only a few years (or none) of US tax experience were billing at > 350. hr. A senior lawyer billing at 650./750. Another quoted 450. / 475. Who knows how high it will go once the fear factor is heightened by FATCA.
Here is the fee schedule of the Upper Canada Law Society – Ontario for comparison http://www.lsuc.on.ca/with.aspx?id=2147484278 I couldn’t find an equivalent for some of the Western provinces.
You can see how long they have been practicing in the US tax field, how long they’ve had their credentials and when they were called to the bar by looking up their websites ex., see one of the firms that sometimes posts here at IBS (Note: this is not an endorsement). You can click on the credentials to see how long it has been since they were called to the bar, and how much actual experience of US tax from the ‘foreign’ perspective http://www.moodysgartner.com/credentials ex. http://www.moodystax.com/credentials/james_gifford/
Quite apart from the problem of ‘coming into compliance’, and getting legal advice, just the continued attempt to stay ‘compliant’ annually also gets you quoted incredible sums from CPAs who want signed letters of engagement, without ANY estimate, just for a simple US return – and might quote an hourly rate of 350. (or more). Some of the big ones won’t even take on US backfiling without the person also retaining a lawyer – they note that upfront before even seeing at the returns or knowing anything about the ‘facts and circumstances’ (and quoting a rate of 2-3000. per tax year for only the preparation and accounting part of the compliance).
Even the chains like HRBlock charge pretty high fees just for a simple US return + a la carte for most additional forms like the 3520/3520A. See http://www.hrblock.ca/services/US_tax_pricing.asp (and because we are not US residents, there are always the IRS demands for additional complex and incomprehensible forms – in order for us to prove that yet again, we still owe zero US tax and are not money laundering drug running terror funding criminals).
And the fees are no guarantee that the returns, forms, and understanding of the file will be perfectly error-free, no matter how much they charge.
Hello Mike Tarrantes (and Badger),
Sorry, but I have to ask my question again as the company you suggested advised me today that it does not “fill out tax forms.”
So, my question still is: Can IB or any of your readers advise (with disclaimers) readers with names of accountants/attorneys who have a good track record (e.g., worked in 10 of 10 clients) in successfully filling out IRS 8854 and final tax forms for departing citizens–and charge not unreasonable fees.
I feel that this is a not unreasonable question for those US persons who first want to know, from an experienced company, whether they have drifted into covered expatriate territory.
If you are not aware of any such company with 8854 experience, please let us know.
Thanks
what do you mean ‘worked in 10 of 10 clients’ ? What part of the country?
By 10 of 10 I mean, for example, that out of x number of 8854 forms the company helped to file, all or most passed IRS scrutiny–or perhaps the success rate was poor. The customer should know this.
Regarding “part of the country”–the accountant that I use to fill out my simple IRS forms is 2000 miles from my home, so location is not an issue. (My account does not have experience in 8854s.)
My simple point is that if I make a significant mistake on 8854 I know that the consequences can be very bad. I just want to find a company that has a track record in filling out this form.
Stephen Katz in vancouver
Thanks, am e-mailing Katz now.
@IRSCompliantForever,
In your earlier comment, you said that if this site were really serious, it will advise (with disclaimers) readers with names of accountants/attorneys who have a good track record (e.g., worked in 10 of 10 clients) in successfully filling out 8854 and final tax forms for departing citizens–and charge not unreasonable fees. This site is serious. However, it is our policy not to endorse videos or other material or be a source of advertisement for businesses. We’re not able to provide this resource you’d like. It is not this site’s policy to recommend or advertise services for one tax law firm, accounting firm, preparer over another. Such recommendations would be speculative — all are our individual choices, based on our due diligence. Saying that, there are comments scattered throughout the site of individual experiences with professionals. We also have been fortunate to have a few professionals add to the conversation we have here. I think this post may be able to assist you in finding the help you decide best to hire. Attorney, CPA, EA or Registered Tax Preparer – Your choice of dance partner – Tax compliance
Our posted policy is:
PS …and I see you already have a recommendation from an individual commenter. That’s the better way to get such information for someone you might check out.
Calgary411, I do appreciate your point and also recognize that there may possibly be an individual commenter who can provide me/readers with such practical information.
Yet, I suspect that such commenters will not have the collective knowledge, experience, and due diligence of your society–and in this respect I am suggesting that IB be more than an open forum.
You say that “The Isaac Brock Society is here to fight.” and that “We are here to provide one another with resources and strategies, comfort and advice.”
Would it not then be reasonable to provide readers with an evolving short list of accountants/attorneys (with extensive disclaimers) who your due diligence suggests might help in the fight?
@IRS compliant, we used to have a private forum but it was taken down several months ago.
@IRSCompliantForever
The USCrossborder-Compliance-IndustrialComplex has caught on to this demand, and is actively marketing services (for the 8854 and related forms, and now, also for physically accompanying people to their renunciation appointments at US consulates) and soliciting clients for those services via what I consider to be ‘infomercials’ – in e-mails and website posts. There is some utility to the content – though now that we have collected information at IBS, limitations, errors, and other shortfalls therein have become more obvious.
Sorry, wish I could help you, and wish I had actually found someone I could feel good about recommending – but I haven’t found such a person or firm – I haven’t paid for help with that particular form, and have no information re professionals with ‘track records’ – or a sample size of at least 10 to draw on. I wasn’t happy with the ‘professionals’ I used, as they made obvious errors, which even I as a layperson identified, despite the size of their fees and their professed experience specific to US crossborder tax filings. They charged for correcting their own errors, and for any communications regarding the same. They excused the errors as due to the press of processing multiple clients – though they had my file and all requisite materials for months in advance of deadlines. Staff sometimes contradicted themselves or each other, and demonstrated an ignorance of the pertinent facts in my file. Some general advice in a public blog was characterized as a case file update – billed at the highest rate. It has been very difficult to find a firm or individuals to give meaningful or useful estimates. Some want open-ended letters of engagement signed first – but refuse to provide more than the general range of hourly fees charged by the entire group of individuals at the firm – with no information about how that might apply to specific ‘facts and circumstances’ and a particular case.
Unfortunately, it is ‘buyer beware’, but with not much opportunity for the consumer to make informed choices. At least, that is my experience, and I tried to do extensive research and follow Just Me’s advice about doing my own work before signing up with a ‘professional’.
Badger, many thanks for your reply.
I am ok with me or my accountant filling out almost all IRS forms (I fill out 3520/3520A myself and have never cared if I make a mistake on these meaningless forms). However, 8854 scares me and I want a professional involved at reasonable cost.
I am still an optimist however and expect that next year when FATCA kicks in, and US “persons” begin renouncing in droves (with most deciding to fill out the tricky 8854), we (and IB) will have a better idea as to those professionals who are actually helpful.
@IRSCompliantForever
I would argue that what we really need to find right about now are some good lawyers who are prepared to work pro bono on Charter challenges and class-actions suits, NOT more FBAR, FATCA and OVDI compliance herders.
If FATCA can be defeated then maybe citizenship-based taxation can be as well. Then you won’t have to fill out nearly as many damn forms or continue handing over your hard-earned money to “professionals” who are merely the taxation equivalent of America’s beloved health insurance companies – predatory, hugely expensive and ultimately useless.
@IRSCompliantForever,
In my opinion only, the Isaac Brock Society at this point doesn’t have the extensive information necessary to even start such a list of practitioners, comparing their competencies, fees and service outcomes. Such a list, if it were possible, would have to be top heavy with disclaimers. There may be others keen to do the volunteer work to research, build and maintain such a list. It would be beyond my time capability and competence level to make fair comparisons — as useful as such a resource would be.
Deckard1138, one can be IRS compliant and at the same time try to kill FATCA and citizenship-based taxation.
Rather than figuring out how to find a lawyer for a formal charter challenge, do you think that it might be helpful if every IB commenter-US person filed, on their own, a complaint with the Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada and also with the Canada Human Rights Commission, and then forwarded the complaint to the Minister of Finance’s office?
The complaint would be based in part on the arguments raised in the letter of Peter Hogg to Finance.
@IRS compliant forever, I share your fears about form 8854 because it’s essential not to risk mistakes so that I cab smoothly log out of the U.S. tax systems or will never be truly free from all this. I expect that my final accounting bill will be almost doubly expensive ($4000-$5000) but seems worth it to make sure I’m safe. I believe my accountant based in the U.K. is very good but unfortunately will have had to spend almost $25,000 with her to clean up my mess. It’s been Hell but at least am starting to see light at the end of the tunnel!! Umm
@IRSCompliant
FWIW, I think many of us here have filed our own US forms, because we are not wealthy, etc. I doubt this would answer all your concerns but there is a page on Phil H’s blog which talks about 8854, and 15 comments:
http://hodgen.com/question-about-expatriation-from-reader/
Noble, thanks–I had previously seen this blog (and probably almost all 8854 blogs in existence) which deals with one of my problems: how to calculate assets when US person is married.
BTW, I contacted yesterday one highly advertised cross border tax specialist asking for help in filling out 8854. The company advised that it did not have this experience and mentioned that if I were successful in finding someone, it would be nice if I passed the info on to the company (as it would like the expertise).
Regarding wealth and cost, I may be naive, but all I want is one hour’s service with a company that will ensure that I have correctly calculated my assets on 8854. This is tricky and the amount can get close to catastrophic covered expatriate territory if a US person in Canada has the high misfortune (and audacity) of owning a house, having a pension, and being married.
Some day there will be a list of professionals…
@IRSCompliantForever,
Will there someday be understandable instructions to come with every form the IRS requires?
Will there someday be full transparency for immigrants to the US, for US Persons living and working abroad of exactly what the US tax requirements are, not just the small print on a passport?
— and why is this whole concept of US taxation requirements not a prerequisite for graduation from a US high school. I was a good student and I don’t remember anything — or perhaps I was absent that day?
Why is there not good and responsible journalism with full discussion of FATCA, what US citizenship-based taxation is and how it affects US Persons in other countries?
Why are we and our children leashed to the US, without a real CHOICE?
I feel that Monalisa (below) provides the best response to all of your questions.
monalisa1776:
April 1, 2013 at 12:53 pm
I’ve cynically concluded that Congress frankly doesn’t give a damn about our plight. It seems the most realistic thing to do if you’re not planning to ever return to live in the States nor live a substantial inheritance to a U.S. citizen is to renounce or, ideally, relinquish if you can ASAP. I fear that the rules are going to become stricter making it either harder to actually expatriate or that there will be a lot more obstruction.
@IRSCompliantForever,
Renounce – done (me, my husband, my adult daughter born in Canada) / check;
CLN (me, my husband, my adult daughter born in Canada) – received / check;
final 1040 and 8854 – working on it.
Give me the same for my developmentally delayed “accidental American” son. Unfortunately DOS says that parents, guardians, trustees do not have the right to decide if such family members can renounce “supposed” US citizenship, so they are forever, punitively, trapped into the administration of US tax returns and forms forever — for no $$$ benefit to the US (at least not until they receive an inheritance from their parent(s) who renounced successfully to help sustain them), thus robbing the estate of whatever amount, in my case not that much, may be left to provide for that person when their parent is gone. There is my definition of obstruction / entrapment.
@Calgary411, couldn’t you request a private letter ruling in your son’s case?
Hi, monalisa.
This will not affect just my son and it will be a year-after-year-after-year situation. The problem is there being no RIGHT for a parent, guardian or trustee to renounce US citizenship on behalf of the person they make decisions for. It is not an IRS problem. It is a Department of State / Immigration / Nationality issue. Unless there can be renunciation, there is no release from the US and no release from the yearly senseless requirements of the IRS. My son was born in Canada — he did not have a choice where he was born. He and others, with the decision of their parent, guardian, trustee, should, in my humble opinion, have CHOICE — choosing whether or not to take advantage of the conveyance of US citizenship which they could have by birth to a US citizen — not an automatic conveyance. It is NOT a gift. I will maintain to my grave that my son who was born in Canada, raised in Canada, never was registered with the US, never lived in the US, never received any benefit from the US — should be considered only Canadian by CHOICE of his parent, guardian, trustee who make best decisions for well-being of that person. Unfortunately, my son is, as they say, the tip of the iceberg on how many this injustice will affect. Most families of disabled persons have much more on their plate than to have to worry about any of this. What a waste of human energy, resources. It should be a matter of common sense and morality.
From a comment I made on Isaac Brock some time ago:
Until they come to lock me up for not having done so, I will not register my son with the US. I hope I can pull off ‘don’t ask / don’t tell’.
@ Calgary,
I don’t know what I can do about this (except raise awareness of this issue by making a comment when it ties in with a newspaper article). But if ever there is something more that people like us can do to help get that US law/policy changed, this is so egregious, you can count on me and I’m sure a whole lot of people here, to lend a hand with it.
@Calgary,
I for one would be more than willing to ‘lend a hand’ to get this ridiculous law/rule changed. I have told your story and the story of your son to many, many people both sides of the border. Everyone sympathizes and shakes their head at how absolutely absurd it is – you are not allowed to ‘renounce’ on his behalf; and he is not capable of ‘renouncing’ with full understanding of the act. Unfair, unjust!
Thanks, monalisa, pacifica, tiger. I know only too well that I have the support of many here at Isaac Brock if anything is ever able to happen on this issue. It’s not something I’ll ever give up on — not for my son only. It needs to be changed PERIOD…for every family this will affect. It just ain’t fair, McGee! But then, is any of this fair?
You’ll NEVER know how much I value the support that Isaac Brock gives to so many!