Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 2
US RELINQUISHMENT RENUNCIATION.m2
Above is a link to data we are compiling on Relinquishments and Renunciations — a work in progress.
(We are starting Part 2 as Part 1 has now over 1,000 comments.) Link to “Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 1”
This Relinquishment and Renunciation database corresponds with the Consulate Report Directory, which tracks individual experiences for each Consulate, along with a timeline chart.
Note: We are using numbers instead of blog names for this public posting so there will be no compromise of private information. Your facts will help give a snapshot of relinquishment and renunciation activity and where that occurs.
Please submit information in the comments below (or someone can contact you privately if you leave a message).
This database and the Consulate Report Directory have proven valuable resources for those new to the subject of relinquishment and renunciation. They can see numbers for and read others’ experiences of relinquishment or renunciation at various US consulates throughout the world — as reported by participants of the Isaac Brock site.
Thanks for your addition to the Relinquishment and Renunciation database. Your input will definitely help others.
Well, if they’ve no connections to the States and never plan to ever go back there again then nothing. Even if by some chance the IRS issued them with a fine or something, it can’t be collected unless they physically set foot in the US. Of course if they owe the IRS a lot of unpaid tax and dare to try and enter the States they’ll probably be arrested. But nothing will be done so long as they never darken the US’s border control again – ever.
If one does not certify 5 years of tax compliance they will be considered a ‘covered expatriate’. So far under FATCA, a CLN is enough for foreign banks to consider someone to be a non-US person, however, Swisspinoy made a great point: the US may expand the definition of ‘US person’ to include covered expatriates, as they’ve included green card holders. That’s one way for the US to close the compliance gap that FATCA currently has.
BB And the sun might not come up tomorrow. The people in question are probably home free.
Whatever, KC.
@Polly
This person is still on the hook for back filings. Any taxes owed would have ever growing interest and penalties associated with them. If the person has “foreign trusts” (ridiculously easy to happen in Canada – RESP, TFSA) then this person can have draconian penalties for not filing 3520 and 3520A forms. If this person has non-trivial savings this person can have draconian penalties for not filing FBARs. Also, there’s a $10K penalty for not filing the 8854 form. Additionally, this person may have moved into the wilfully non-compliant category, which I *think* in a worst case could open them up to criminal prosecution (can anyone confirm or refute?)
Finally, if there is a tax treaty between this person’s country and the US, and the treaty requires their country to collect IRS imposed taxes and penalties, then their own government could potentially come after them for this money. FWIW, I’m not aware of any treaties like that, so this could be me being alarmist – does anyone know of such?
In short, this person will always have something hanging over their head, and the only questions are how big this something is, and whether it’s capable of coming down on them in a horrible manner.
The Canada-US tax treaty specifically does not require the Canadian government to collect IRS imposed taxes and penalties for those who were Canadian citizens when those liabilities were incurred. In a best case, the same is true for this person, and as long as they stay out of the US and have no US based assets, they should be OK. I have no idea whether the treaty could be later changed to negate this retroactively.
“Finally, if there is a tax treaty between this person’s country and the US, and the treaty requires their country to collect IRS imposed taxes and penalties, then their own government could potentially come after them for this money. FWIW, I’m not aware of any treaties like that, so this could be me being alarmist – does anyone know of such?”
This article address a related issue on extradition for tax offenses. Possibly of value:
http://digitalcommons.lmu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1553&context=ilr
Thank you all. I dont know what to tell these people. It sounds like they are already in a pretty bad situation for not having filed the documents at the designated time. They do have no connections to America so I have no idea how successful their going into hiding can be in the long run, or for travel in general.
Until now they seem to have fallen off the radar. I just dont see how that can be possible and would assume it is because the IRS is just too busy with other cases for the time being.
Polly, tdott et al The choice Polly’s friends have made is quite reasonable. Think about it. It costs time and money to pursue someone . When they have no idea if it’s worth the trouble, they can’t afford to bother. They have thousands of federal civil servants who are known to owe them millions. They gave out $4Billion in fraudulent refunds this year. They are forced to take unpaid days off because of cutbacks…..
As far as extradition-you’ve got to be kidding me. To extradite someone requires a court order from both countries. These don’t come cheaply. We have to learn to keep our heads about us when all else are losing theirs’.
Guys, I’ve done it 🙂 I flew from Dunedin to Auckland New Zealand and went through the relinquishment process today. I’m now at the airport waiting to fly home. Truly insane it’s cost me over $500 to have someone see me sign a few pieces of paper, but oh well what can you do? My only fear is after going through all this hoohah that the relinquishment is denied. However I see no reason for it to be. I committed the two acts in 2008 (got citizenship and took oath to NZ & Queen). I supplied all of this info, even a copy of the oath of allegiance which I signed on the day of my citizenship ceremony. I have not had a single thing to do with the US since that moment (no voting, travel, tax filing). I’ll be quite stunned if for some reason I am denied my right to relinquish based on what I supplied. As far as the experience, it was a bit unnerving and bizarre to say the least. I’ll get into that more later on, maybe once the CLN is in hand. So, I’ll have a few questions over the next several weeks. I’ll start with wondering what happens when the CLN is granted. Will it just show up in the mail one day? I assume it can take 2-4 months? If I hear nothing after say 3 months should I contact the state dept for an update? Although my CLN would be dated for 2008 I assume I still must back file the last 5 yrs 2013-back? I have seen some say it would be 2008-back but more say 2013-back that I can see. Should I wait until I get the CLN before starting the tax back filing process? And something I really need is a recommendation of a tax service to help me get through this. I have seen a few of these ‘expat tax’ services online but I am not sure I can trust them. I would prefer to use someone that a Brocker has used and can vouch for, especially for the purposes of relinquishment and back filing. It is a relief to have finally done it, and hopefully I will be granted the CLN. Has anyone here been denied a relinquishment? It seems to me if you have shown you do not want or intend to be American than why would they try to force you to remain American? Thanks for everything guys, I am inching closer to freedom!
Congratulations, Pukekonz!
I’m sure you have no reason to doubt your relinquishment will be approved (Auckland was pretty sticky about things from the start, so I suspect if they had any doubts they would have told you straight up). As for your question, has anyone here had a relinquishment CLN application rejected? No. There have been three people who were told they did not meet the criteria (actually one was only told it was dicey and decided not to proceed for that reason), but this was at the consulate stage; no one has reported rejection by DC.
Re one of your tax questions, 877A of the Tax Code considers your loss of citizenship for tax purposes to be 2013 – but don’t even think about that stuff today.
Celebrate!
@Pukekonz
I am happy for you. Your CLN will be yours to have soon.
Sorry for the time and expense involved but there you go … the deed is done. Congratulations Pukekonz! Stay in touch and I hope the wise ones on Brock will be able to help get you through the paperwork aftermath. How did you find the Auckland consulate staff when you were face to face with them? Have you thought of trying to contact Vinny Eastwood about FATCA (http://www.thevinnyeastwoodshow.com/)? He takes on lots of causes, big and small. I tried from here in Canada but I didn’t get a response but maybe someone closer to home would pique his interest more. I’m getting the impression that there just isn’t very much awareness in NZ, perhaps because of the small percentage of U.S. connected persons living there.
Congratulations pukekonz! Since you haven’t been a US citizen since 2008, one would think that you wouldn’t have to file US taxes since 2008. Yet, I think that the US requires that one files 8854 to become liberated from the US tax system. So normally, the last 5 years would be 5 years until 2008, but maybe you’d have to file the last 5 years up to 2014. Yet, for all of those 5 years, you were a non-US citizen! It is certainly not just for a non-American to be required to file US taxes on non-US income. You’ll probably have to get legal assistance on that question, maybe ask the IRS directly?
Well done pukekonz! Congratulations. Another one joins the ranks of the truly free. As pacifica777 said, don’t worry about the tax thing for a few days, just celebrate your successful relinquishment.
@pukekonz
Would you willing to post your experiences at the consulate in Auckland? There are others in NZ that may be able to benefit from your knowledge of how they operate and their attitude etc.
@ozgood I found the experience unnerving and unpleasant. I somehow got off on the wrong foot with the teller behind the bullet proof shield. I was booked in for a relinquishment and she gave me a form marked “renouncing” and told me to go pay $450 and the cashier. Now, I had discussed this at length prior to my visit that I was relinquishing, not renouncing. So I got a bit flustered and said “I’m relinquishing, not renouncing there’s a difference” and she got very snappy “BELIEVE IT OR NOT I KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A RELINQUISHMENT AND A RENOUNCEMENT SIR!”. I was ordered to take a seat and waiting about 30 minutes thinking that this is not going well. It was pretty stressful considering my expense to get there, etc. I could see her on the phone and figured she was trying to find a way to make me pay that $450 as a way to spite me. It just felt that way based on her sour attitude. Anyway, after some time I saw her hand my papers to a consulate officer. He then called me over and did not ask for $450. His attitude was bizarre, one of “I can’t believe you are doing this”. He did not say it directly but it was all over his face, body language and the way he spoke to me. For example after I swore I knew what I was doing he was looking a bit stunned, like a deer in headlights and mumbled …”ok….” as if I just told him his favorite dog would need to be put down. He then told me where to sign on the forms. I found it all awkward and I felt judged by the people I dealt with there. They seemed friendly to others at the windows who were not relinquishing, but it felt like they took offense to me (I guess after all, I’m a disgusting traitor). He then said that was it and it was for the lawyers to decide if this goes through or not. That it might take a few months before I hear anything. I will feel a huge sense of relief once I get the CLN because it felt like the NZ consulate had never done a relinquishment before and that they didn’t care for spending their time on someone ditching their country. I think US consulates should be far more professional in this regard and never judge someone for what they are doing. I was well within my right to do what I did. I think their attitude should have been “Wow, that’s really cool you’ve made a life here, good luck to you sir, everything looks in order and you’ll hear from us shortly”. I think they let their personal feeling and national pride get in the way. I was glad to get out of there and just hope to hell my CLN comes through.
@pukekonz
Thanks very much for posting that. I am in NZ and considering going through this process. It is rather distressing to hear that the consular officials in Auckland have such an poor attitude. Just out of interest, was the first teller American or a Kiwi? When you call up there, generally they are local people that answer the phone. If she was a Kiwi that attitude would be very strange.
They better get used to it …. there will be many more following in your footsteps in the coming months and years.
@osgood the teller was American and the officer was as well of course. Basically I found Hayley (the girl who books appointments) to be very pleasant via email (maybe she’s a kiwi lol). She was the only one I had a good experience with. Hopefully I oiled the gears a bit and you will not have the same hiccups. They definitely need to get used to it because it sounds like we’ll see an exponential growth in relinquishment and renunciation. Especially since it’s starting to become the norm and more accepted. If I were you I would just go there, keep your head down and mouth shut and plod through it. Will you have to travel to Auckland?
@ pukekonz
There were a couple of bad experience type consulates in Canada at first but recent reports are that they have cleaned up their acts. I hope this will be the case in Auckland too. It takes time to turn around a bad attitude. The forthcoming relinquishments will make it necessary for them to improve. They don’t have to like the idea of relinquishment but they should not be making anyone feel intimidated or second-class. Anyway, I hope that CLN is in your hand very soon.
Wow, @Pukekonz, well at least you’re through with it now! You’ll feel so relieved to receive that CLN. I agree with the others that it’s probably mainly a case of them not being used to dealing with all this…
@pukekonz, sorry to hear that your experience was so bad. It could just be attitude about the whole renunciation/relinquishment thing or it could be, as others have said, that they’re simply not used to dealing with this part of their services. We know Vancouver’s had a bad attitude for ages, but seem to finally be more accommodating on the whole process. At other embassies it’s often been the person going to renounce/relinquish who’s known more about the procedure than the consular staff themselves. Then you get the ones like Bern who are professional and easy to deal with because they’ve handled so many. Unfortunately, if there’s no reports in the Consulate Directory here on a specific embassy/consulate to give people an idea of what to expect, it’s just a guess which situation you’ll find when you walk through the door.
The main thing is it’s done now and you just have to wait for the CLN to arrive. Focus on that and let the bad taste of how you got there fade into a distant memory.
I had previously posted that I had applied for a Certificate of Loss of Citizenship without going through the renunciation process. I wrote that we were told by the Consulate in Toronto that they would recommend that we get that certificate.
I have now received a Certificate of Loss of Citizenship indicating that I ceased to be a US citizen in 1974 based on my becoming a Canadian citizen and swearing the oath to the Queen which was used at that time and my intent at that time to give up my US citizenship.
Sorry, in my earlier post today I wrote that I had received a Certificate of Loss of Citizenship. Of course I meant Certificate of Loss of Nationality (CLN).
No more expensive filing of income tax forms and FBARs. I have notified my bank and investment firm of the fact I have received the CLN. Hopefully this will shield me from FATCA.
Congratulations to both of you! I’m also from that era and it was a really great feeling to get that CLN and a sense that my life was back in order.
I recall you went to Toronto Consulate in September — a two-month turnaround — I hope this bodes well for others in the Toronto area.
Thanks for sharing your good news!
@Kingston
Good you got yours and backdated. Good you are here too. We need your support and feedback.